HELP - New EU Directive affecting residence on basis of FR
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network_engineer
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:21 am
Dear Daryl et al.
Daryl: I did not find any changes to the Alien's Act to reflect the said Directive (but in all fairness, I just skipped through and might have missed it). That being said, if the changes have not been enacted to the national laws, then strangely enough, they seem to understand the effect of the direct vertical effect of a Directive when it suits them.
Added later: Sy: You just beat me to my posting the same issue.
We find it hilarious because another EC Directive that gives added rights to the migrants from third countries who are living in member states, i.e. a Directive that has a vertical direct effect, was stated as having no effect by UVI and the Immigration Department in the Ministry of the Interior in the absence of national legislation.
Anyways, on the letter suggesting her to ask for a visa, I did think on the same lines, based on the discussion that we had on the EC Long-Term Resident permit issue, i.e. would the holder need a visa and if it can be issued when the intent is long-term.
ephanel: I am not sure, but Daryl's suggestion to lodge a complaint with the Ombudsman or the Attorney General holds a lot of value. I can also imagine (in a inexplicable sort of way) that it might help your overall case. I am sure you can get a copy of the letter from UVI/Poliisi. Particularly of value, since they were the ones who advised you to have your mother come here and apply here in Finland in the first place.
That being said, you could do the following:
1. Request a copy of the letter that was given to you asking you to withdraw the application (if you've binned it) from the poliisi(?) or UVI, wherever. Forward this to Daryl.
2. Very importantly: See if you can also obtain a copy of the initial advice, i.e. advising you to request for a visa to obtain entry. Forward this also to Daryl. If Daryl, on seeing the letter, advises you to complain, it is worth it and will most likely help your overall case.
On Daryl's response that they [UVI] could bypass the community laws, do they even need to???
OK, now that it is confirmed that the applicable Directive is 2003/58/EY and not 2003/86/EC... here is the relevant excerpt:
Tässä direktiivissä tarkoitetaan:
2) ’perheenjäsenellä’:
d) unionin kansalaisesta riippuvaisia sukulaisia suoraan takenevassa polvessa samoin kuin unionin kansalaisen aviopuolison tai b alakohdassa tarkoitetun kumppanin vastaavanlaisia sukulaisia;
In other words, parents are included. Good luck with this issue.
Cheers.
Daryl: I did not find any changes to the Alien's Act to reflect the said Directive (but in all fairness, I just skipped through and might have missed it). That being said, if the changes have not been enacted to the national laws, then strangely enough, they seem to understand the effect of the direct vertical effect of a Directive when it suits them.
Added later: Sy: You just beat me to my posting the same issue.
We find it hilarious because another EC Directive that gives added rights to the migrants from third countries who are living in member states, i.e. a Directive that has a vertical direct effect, was stated as having no effect by UVI and the Immigration Department in the Ministry of the Interior in the absence of national legislation.
Anyways, on the letter suggesting her to ask for a visa, I did think on the same lines, based on the discussion that we had on the EC Long-Term Resident permit issue, i.e. would the holder need a visa and if it can be issued when the intent is long-term.
ephanel: I am not sure, but Daryl's suggestion to lodge a complaint with the Ombudsman or the Attorney General holds a lot of value. I can also imagine (in a inexplicable sort of way) that it might help your overall case. I am sure you can get a copy of the letter from UVI/Poliisi. Particularly of value, since they were the ones who advised you to have your mother come here and apply here in Finland in the first place.
That being said, you could do the following:
1. Request a copy of the letter that was given to you asking you to withdraw the application (if you've binned it) from the poliisi(?) or UVI, wherever. Forward this to Daryl.
2. Very importantly: See if you can also obtain a copy of the initial advice, i.e. advising you to request for a visa to obtain entry. Forward this also to Daryl. If Daryl, on seeing the letter, advises you to complain, it is worth it and will most likely help your overall case.
On Daryl's response that they [UVI] could bypass the community laws, do they even need to???
OK, now that it is confirmed that the applicable Directive is 2003/58/EY and not 2003/86/EC... here is the relevant excerpt:
Tässä direktiivissä tarkoitetaan:
2) ’perheenjäsenellä’:
d) unionin kansalaisesta riippuvaisia sukulaisia suoraan takenevassa polvessa samoin kuin unionin kansalaisen aviopuolison tai b alakohdassa tarkoitetun kumppanin vastaavanlaisia sukulaisia;
In other words, parents are included. Good luck with this issue.
Cheers.
Last edited by network_engineer on Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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network_engineer
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:21 am
Hi ephanel,
Them let them issue you a decision that can be appealed in the Administrative court.
Furthermore, Article 9 of the said Directive states thus:
"2. The deadline for submitting the residence card application
may not be less than three months from the date of arrival."
I.e. does it not imply that the residence card application could be applied for in the member state, once the family member has arrived?
With a very quick read, at least, I could not figure anything in the Directive that says an application needs to be lodged outside the Member state or that it cannot be lodged while being in the member state.
Daryl will know more.
Cheers.
Them let them issue you a decision that can be appealed in the Administrative court.
Furthermore, Article 9 of the said Directive states thus:
"2. The deadline for submitting the residence card application
may not be less than three months from the date of arrival."
I.e. does it not imply that the residence card application could be applied for in the member state, once the family member has arrived?
With a very quick read, at least, I could not figure anything in the Directive that says an application needs to be lodged outside the Member state or that it cannot be lodged while being in the member state.
Daryl will know more.
Cheers.
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network_engineer
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:21 am
Hi!
Waking up today morning, I had strange discussions in my head on this topic. I.e. I could not find anything in the said Directive about having to apply from outside the member states, if the said applicant was a third country national. So, why is it that they said that it has to do with the country of departure?
One of my weird guesses is that they finally got a bit wise,
i.e. that they incorrectly (and legally incorrect too?) advised the 'sponsor' to apply for a visa meant for temporary purposes and then offically advising a change of intent on reaching the Member State by applying for a residence permit.
If word of this does got public, like Daryl said, there would be quite some explaining to do, maybe not only at the national level but also at the Schengen level, if it does go that far?
Easiest way: (my guess only) Tell the sponsor to return the applicant back to the country of origin and apply there and wait for the decision. That way, the principles under which visas are issued are maintained and heads don't roll!
I can't help smiling thinking of the possibilities.
ephanel: Do let us know the outcome.
Cheers.
Waking up today morning, I had strange discussions in my head on this topic. I.e. I could not find anything in the said Directive about having to apply from outside the member states, if the said applicant was a third country national. So, why is it that they said that it has to do with the country of departure?
One of my weird guesses is that they finally got a bit wise,
i.e. that they incorrectly (and legally incorrect too?) advised the 'sponsor' to apply for a visa meant for temporary purposes and then offically advising a change of intent on reaching the Member State by applying for a residence permit.If word of this does got public, like Daryl said, there would be quite some explaining to do, maybe not only at the national level but also at the Schengen level, if it does go that far?
Easiest way: (my guess only) Tell the sponsor to return the applicant back to the country of origin and apply there and wait for the decision. That way, the principles under which visas are issued are maintained and heads don't roll!
I can't help smiling thinking of the possibilities.
ephanel: Do let us know the outcome.
Cheers.