Center for Inclusion first meeting!!!

[EP]

the cold water on the other hand might be an incentive to get moving very fast...

High school exhange students usually are quite competent swimmers by Christmas. They have come in August and lived in familes where family members stop speaking English by mid-September.

[Rosamunda]

Copied from a previous thread (quoting myself here but what the hell...)

There is also this issue....

http://www.yle.fi/news/id54680.html

ie: the fact that the FFL (Finnish foreign language) teaching is not up to scratch. Not much thought is put into class sizes, mix, needs analysis, materials etc etc. Many of us have been on FFL or Swedish courses at some point and would probably agree that a lot could be done to improve them (eg more emphasis on communication rather than grammatical accuracy). I think employers should be able to get 100% tax break on all foreign language tuition for their foreign employees.... And foreigners should be able to deduct language tuition fees from their tax (if they are working) or get 50% sponsorship from the state (if they are not working) including on privately run (but "certified") courses. The queues are too long for the Employment Office courses and they are not suited to everybody anyway.

I think the situation is improving but sooo slowly. I shall do another course this summer but it would be nice to have more choice... (argh the kesayliopisto...) more conversation courses, more "themed" courses. More Easy Finnish bulletins on the radio, why not a whole channel of Easy News and FFL lessons 24/7 for foreigners.

And I agree 100% about being forced to speak Finnish. I wish people would stop answering me in English. If I make the immeasurable effort of putting together a (semi) coherent sentence in Finnish the least I expect in return is a sympathetic (empathetic) ear.... and some nice and easy Finnish back.

[enk]

penelope: answer them back in Finnish anyways. In the early days, I've
said to people: Anteeksi, mutta yritän oppia suomea, voisitko sanoa tuon
uudestaan suomeksi (ja hitaasti). (Sorry, but I'm trying to learn Finnish.
Could you say that again in Finnish (and slowly). Usually people laugh and
repeat it then in Finnish. And if it's in the store or some place similiar
where I saw the same people over and over again, they remembered the
next time and talked to me in Finnish.

If that didn't get through to them, I've said things like: Suomi on hieno kieli, ja haluaisin oppia puhumaan sitä! (Finnish is a fine language and I'd like to learn to speak it!). That works quite well, too

Have any of you thought about getting together and creating your own
class of people? At least recently it was possible to get funding for it
(although not much), but you could contact the universities and ask
for info about students who are learning to become Finnish teachers
for foreigners and you wouldn't have to pay them as much.

This page has some info in English: http://www.okry.fi/index.php?main=415

-enk

[Hank W.]

And to think of it - people whine of xenophobia and racism, when some drunk in the bus has overheard them speak in a foreign language and gone: "suomessa puhutaan suomea perrrkele" - when the wino was only trying to *help you integrate*

[enk]

I saw a classic example of this today at the bus stop (*whine* since the
205 never showed up, I had plenty of time to watch it *whine*): a foreign
woman, her daughter and an old Finnish lady. The little old lady said how
beautiful the little girl was and was being nice and trying to chitchat
with the mother, who proceeded to glare and be rude to her. Now
hopefully the next time the little old lady runs across a foreigner and her
daughter, she doesn't think "why bother, the last one was totally
obnoxious".

-enk

[RA]

FFL classes uumph! I gave up on these ages ago. I got to the point like Penelope points out that grammar exercises in the classes is just a bit too much. Sure I'll get the grammar work done for class and my verbal communication is okay, but my problem is the writing. I write terribly but no FFL class really caters for it so I've kind of got to a standstill. I think having to write short compositions or dictation exercises would help but no FFL teacher I've ever had has given us these. Someone suggested that I join aikuislukio and take äidinkieli, but I was told that they mainly focus on reading some literature and analysing it...I don't really know. And then someone suggested I go to an yläaste and do äidinkieli...but for some reason I don't really see myself sitting in a class with 12 year olds . The aikuislukio äidinkieli classes initially seemed a more attractive option to me.

[Rosamunda]

That sounds like a good idea... though I'm not quite there yet. The Eira aikuislukio is very much a bilingual High School so it would probably cater for people in a similar situation to yourself. That would be a great solution for my eldest if he needs extra Finnish lessons when he has finished school (the other two are doing OK).

http://www.eiraedu.com/oppaat/pdf/LUKIO ... 6-2007.pdf

[Jason Wright]

I can't agree more with the above comments on the importance of learning Finnish.

When I first came to Finland I was totally gung-ho about learning Finnish and finding a job where I could use it. I couldn't get into any of the full time courses offered by the employment office, since they thought that I was too "well off" and that refugees deserved a place more than I did. I did take courses through the University of Helsinki, but back then they were getting into the "philosophy" of fine particulars of Finnish grammar. Their approach completely missed the mark for developing practical communicative skills. And I ended up teaching English full-time, so I didn't really have the opportunity to use Finnish in a work environment as I had originally envisioned.

Now I have two girls and I've learned Finnish by the constant bombardment of small kids saying thing again and again. So I can understand Finnish quite well and speak so that I am understood in everyday situations, but I can't read nor write well. And prospective employers have made it clear that if I can't write at a fluent level, I am unemployable.

Interesting enough, Finland has one of the best records for literacy - close to 100%. This is where the Ministry of Education needs to wake up to the reality of the growing need for foreign workers and that they need to get serious about revamping the Finnish language training curriculum. The illiteracy of foreigners is the main issue that I would like to immediatly address though CFI. I think that penelope has the right idea about FFL being tax deductable. And I suppose it is, since you can deduct work related expenses up to a certain limit. But if your income is already low, then you probably can't afford higher quality FFL.

The illiteracy at issue here is not the narrowly defined inability to read, but a lack of capacity to absorb appropriate information in a modern society. Long-term unemployment must be, and often is, considered a strong risk factor for social exclusion in many communities due both to its impact on the skills of an individual, and hence future employment prospects, and to separation from the social interaction that comes with employment.

Source: Poverty and Social Exclusion in Europe

But I do not believe that when foreigners do not learn Finnish, it can be completly pinned on the quality of FFL. There are plenty of foreigners I know that are simply passive and too busy complaining about their life here to actually try to learn the language. And I have once been at this stage myself - its not too hard to get discouraged and depressed here. Since the question constantly arises, "When will I speak this language 'good enough' to be accepted?"

On a side note, Suomen Nuorkauppakamarit ry (Junior Chamber International - Finland) - http://www.jci.fi. is an organization that I belong to which indirectly provides an opportunity for young foreigners (18-40) to better integrate socially and learn Finnish by working on volunteer projects. JCI Finland also promotes training and entrepreneurship. I highly recommend you contacting a local chapter to see what they are about. I have had a good time with JCI and met a lot of Finnish friends.

All the best,

Jason

[Hank W.]

There are plenty of foreigners I know that are simply passive and too busy complaining about their life here to actually try to learn the language. And I have once been at this stage myself - its not too hard to get discouraged and depressed here.

Well, I've met a number of foreigners, some been here "for ages" who can't speak, some can speak quite "fluent" after a few months. Some of the older strata have lived in an expat bubble, and managed with the missus so far the kids took over. Some were too busy working and too "hard in the head" they never had the luxury to study, but their passive vocabulary is huge. Then are the ones that came just for a year and never thought of learning and now they got three kids and a mortgage and again working too much to have the luxury of time to study... And then theres the ones that come in and get disappointed they can't learn the language in three weeks It is a very personal thing, learning, and peoples situations differ... some people have a knack for languages, some people don't.

Since the question constantly arises, "When will I speak this language 'good enough' to be accepted?"

Ah, see now thats another aspect. Its the "mentality" that counts. I know a few foreigners whose Finnish can be earbleeding, but they "act" Finnish. Like my example with going to France and "speaking with hands" its the same thing the French is not a "foreigner" after he can sit on his hands for a whole discussion. Its a "vibes" thing you know.

[Rob A.]

[Hank W.]

Don't expect the locals to lead the way for you...and if a few do, then count it as a 'plus'...

...unless its behind the sauna...

[kay30]

One thing I forgot to mention earlier, is that when people say they don't have "time" to study, it is 99% just an excuse. I know because I have used it too (many times).

If they have time to post on this BB (or do whatever other hobbies, vacations, watch TV, go to bars, etc), they have time to study Finnish. Simple as that.

I think many foreigners feel overwhelmed after moving here and stop being honest with themselves and take on a victim role and I think that really hinders the process as well.

There is a big difference between saying, you don't have *time* to do something vs. being honest with yourself and saying you don't *want* to. People always are able to make time for things that are essential. Interestingly, when you make suggestions that they could do x, y, z to solve the problem, then the problem suddenly changes. "Yes, but...blah blah blah instead..."

If you can figure out the REAL reason *why* you don't want to learn Finnish (fear, stress, don't really want to stay here) then you can at least attack the root of the problem. And that might well help you get over that hurdle that stops you from studying.

If you don't want to learn Finnish, fine. But at least be honest with yourself. Swallow your pride and do what you have to do to learn.