I'm quite happy with the forum as it is. And I am another to suggest to those who don't like it, go build your Finland Forum Utopia somewhere else. No one is stopping you.
Personally, this forum fits my needs perfectly and I have no interest is assisting to build another, but I wish you the best of luck and please send a link around when you get it up and running. I'd love to see it.
What is with this forum?!!!!!
Although the advice seems often negative, it is realistic.
1: learn Finnish,
2: network, network, network,
3: don't get your expectations to high, it's going to be a long and difficult road.
There are things that can improve your changes, like the voluntary work kalimisto suggests. But you're almost always in competition with Fins who have at least the same qualifications. You don't need to convince the employer that you're qualified for the job, but that you are better than all the others, even without speaking the language fluently and less background/understanding of the Finnish culture.
In many cases the employer knows that a foreigner can do the job, but he just feels more comfortable with a Fin doing it.
It is the way things are done here. It is not easy to change a complete culture.
1: learn Finnish,
2: network, network, network,
3: don't get your expectations to high, it's going to be a long and difficult road.
There are things that can improve your changes, like the voluntary work kalimisto suggests. But you're almost always in competition with Fins who have at least the same qualifications. You don't need to convince the employer that you're qualified for the job, but that you are better than all the others, even without speaking the language fluently and less background/understanding of the Finnish culture.
In many cases the employer knows that a foreigner can do the job, but he just feels more comfortable with a Fin doing it.
It is the way things are done here. It is not easy to change a complete culture.
>> ... and I think also, you'd mostly need some employer who only uses English and isn't too fussed about qualifications. Find us some and let's put them in here! <<
Eastway does not seem to be too fussed about qualifications :
http://www.eastway.fi/in_english/tyopaikat.html
Eastway currently employs 70 -100 people monthly.
There is always need for skilled professionals and keen apprentices for temporary and permanent work.
If you are interested, please contact:
ville.mattinen@eastway.fi
Because the ad is in English one would think that good English skills would be sufficient for the job but I am almost sure that if you apply for the job Ville Mattinen will tell you that good Finnish skills are necessary. I could be wrong of course. Let´s hope that I am !
Eastway does not seem to be too fussed about qualifications :
http://www.eastway.fi/in_english/tyopaikat.html
Eastway currently employs 70 -100 people monthly.
There is always need for skilled professionals and keen apprentices for temporary and permanent work.
If you are interested, please contact:
ville.mattinen@eastway.fi
Because the ad is in English one would think that good English skills would be sufficient for the job but I am almost sure that if you apply for the job Ville Mattinen will tell you that good Finnish skills are necessary. I could be wrong of course. Let´s hope that I am !
Here's the strategy that the Labour Offices use with foreigners:
1) Start your own company
2) Learn Finnish
3) Be unemployed
I'd like to know why people who know they're moving here don't
even bother to try and learn Finnish before they come. And no,
opening up "Teach Yourself Finnish" for an hour a week isn't going
to cut it, even if that person were an utter genius. The Internet has
enough resources to learn even a smattering of Finnish, which is,
frankly, more than the majority of people slagging off on this forum seem to have done.
Since you're in Ireland, you could contact the following group to
see what they might offer in your area:
http://www.irfinsoc.com/centere.html
-enk
1) Start your own company
2) Learn Finnish
3) Be unemployed
I'd like to know why people who know they're moving here don't
even bother to try and learn Finnish before they come. And no,
opening up "Teach Yourself Finnish" for an hour a week isn't going
to cut it, even if that person were an utter genius. The Internet has
enough resources to learn even a smattering of Finnish, which is,
frankly, more than the majority of people slagging off on this forum seem to have done.
Since you're in Ireland, you could contact the following group to
see what they might offer in your area:
http://www.irfinsoc.com/centere.html
-enk
My point exactly. It's difficult to give all-encompassing advice to someone who is looking for any job whatsoever, not only because (even if we completely set aside the language question) not many of us have acquired the skill of turning stones (or empty beer bottles) into open job vacancies at the drop of a hat, but also because it's very hard to find an employer who would be interested in "any employee".tummansininen wrote:So in the meantime we have plenty of people in no-mans-land who are trying to learn Finnish but haven't yet reached job level, and yes, it would be nice to have some support there. I think it's pretty hard to give though.
Be as it may, of course it would be wonderful if such a service existed. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But honestly I think that slagging off Neil's Finland Forum for not having produced even nearly the desired result (helping all learn Finnish, finding everybody a job or a study placement...) is quite unfair. It all depends on how you define "help". Provide hints, advice - yes. Handing out off-the-rack or custom fit packages of guaranteed success in the spheres of work, language learning, or love - no.
I can't comment on the effectiveness of this forum to help foreigners find jobs, although it can be a great networking tool to meet folks who are here and already established.
What I would say though, is that the possibility to find work here without knowing Finnish, is entirely dependent on the role you are looking for. Some people seem to be desperate and are willing to take any role - but here is the rub, in my opinion your are LESS likely to get unskilled work, than a "professional" job. Manual labour workers are not known for their high level of education and to fit in with the team you need to speak Finnish fluently. Professional roles are easier to fill with international workers, but depends entirely on your skillset. If you have an IT background then I think you can make it here with no problem. Something else that needs a lot of talking, e.g. counselling or pure management, well that will need native language skills IMHO. On the other hand, personal chemistry can overturn all of that sensible stuff - so if you are here and can meet people face-to-face, then you can still blag yourself a good job sometimes.
BTW I have had several jobs here without knowing Finnish. Now I do speak and understand reasonably well, expecially after a few beers, but I prefer not to let my colleagues know, since forcing them to speak English still gives me an edge, and I can hear what they say in meetings when they think I don't understand
LOL.
I hope this is still on topic, since I didn't read all the posts in this thread.
What I would say though, is that the possibility to find work here without knowing Finnish, is entirely dependent on the role you are looking for. Some people seem to be desperate and are willing to take any role - but here is the rub, in my opinion your are LESS likely to get unskilled work, than a "professional" job. Manual labour workers are not known for their high level of education and to fit in with the team you need to speak Finnish fluently. Professional roles are easier to fill with international workers, but depends entirely on your skillset. If you have an IT background then I think you can make it here with no problem. Something else that needs a lot of talking, e.g. counselling or pure management, well that will need native language skills IMHO. On the other hand, personal chemistry can overturn all of that sensible stuff - so if you are here and can meet people face-to-face, then you can still blag yourself a good job sometimes.
BTW I have had several jobs here without knowing Finnish. Now I do speak and understand reasonably well, expecially after a few beers, but I prefer not to let my colleagues know, since forcing them to speak English still gives me an edge, and I can hear what they say in meetings when they think I don't understand
LOL.I hope this is still on topic, since I didn't read all the posts in this thread.
Paul
Here is the millionth + 1 time ther is being repeated:
If you dont know Finnish you should either settle down for
1) Manual labor like cleaning dishes etc that doesnt involve "talking" or "speaking" OR
2) Be soo qualified to be very high up in the management chain that makes you so special ( Even in those cases, you as one of the management member will mostly be isolated time when there is a pikku-aika or break time in between meetings when casual talk is held in Finnish.).
I went to a mechanic shop today and the mechanic said I dont speak good english...But lo and behold he did better than some lads that I ve spoken too..but also because I tried to speak Finnish with him....and the service changed from a "damn foreigner" it ll take more than an hour to fix it to less than 30 minute wait..
Moreover, Even in an English-speaking culture companies here, the informal language is Finnish ( and Some Swedish)..
As you mentioned culture: First things first, if you dont understand Finnish Culture of being honest, realistic and brutally straightforward/factual, you will not be able to survive this society everyday..
and Finnish Politics is another thing...
As for jobs, Networking is the most important skill that you can have..and its a catch-22 there: Without a workplace you cant mingle with Finns that provide you with contacts, without Finnish networking, its difficult to find a job..This kinds of catch-22 is strewn around every aspect of this society....
Another cultural thing here is that Everyone is expected to know some basic things( work life, unemployment, health issues, etc etc) that no one tells you..but then as a foreigner, you can be clueless for decades...
Another thing is that the culture expects every individual to fend for themselves instead of asking support/help no matter the hardship- as well as plan and organize everything yourself - This is ingrained in the culture...so if you dont adopt to it and expect some help its looked upon as being spoon fed...and vice versa..
And those are what many are perceiving it to be too negative advice...
Now, Finns know that they need to adapt to foreigners in the future..but then the catch-22 is that its a long and difficult road for Finns to create a massive Training, education and learning program to attract foreign labor, integrate them, train the Finns to adjust to that foreign population.etc etc..as that becomes a burden for the society which in turn takes away the self-created wealth..
AS for the foreigners who are giving advice here..They have either been very lucky..some have endured painful experiences, others planned and organized, others endured financial losses, family issues etc etc..and those are the advices that you get..
AS for Hank and McCowboy, EP, etc etc who are Finns here to help face the reality and alleviate the pain for foreigners, give them some gratitude than brickbats..for when you come and live the "Reality" here...you will thank them..
now..which idiot said that jobs should be in English? - iI am beginning to wonder if it is an idiot or stupid...someone help me..figure this thing out..
If you dont know Finnish you should either settle down for
1) Manual labor like cleaning dishes etc that doesnt involve "talking" or "speaking" OR
2) Be soo qualified to be very high up in the management chain that makes you so special ( Even in those cases, you as one of the management member will mostly be isolated time when there is a pikku-aika or break time in between meetings when casual talk is held in Finnish.).
I went to a mechanic shop today and the mechanic said I dont speak good english...But lo and behold he did better than some lads that I ve spoken too..but also because I tried to speak Finnish with him....and the service changed from a "damn foreigner" it ll take more than an hour to fix it to less than 30 minute wait..
Moreover, Even in an English-speaking culture companies here, the informal language is Finnish ( and Some Swedish)..
As you mentioned culture: First things first, if you dont understand Finnish Culture of being honest, realistic and brutally straightforward/factual, you will not be able to survive this society everyday..
and Finnish Politics is another thing...
As for jobs, Networking is the most important skill that you can have..and its a catch-22 there: Without a workplace you cant mingle with Finns that provide you with contacts, without Finnish networking, its difficult to find a job..This kinds of catch-22 is strewn around every aspect of this society....
Another cultural thing here is that Everyone is expected to know some basic things( work life, unemployment, health issues, etc etc) that no one tells you..but then as a foreigner, you can be clueless for decades...
Another thing is that the culture expects every individual to fend for themselves instead of asking support/help no matter the hardship- as well as plan and organize everything yourself - This is ingrained in the culture...so if you dont adopt to it and expect some help its looked upon as being spoon fed...and vice versa..
And those are what many are perceiving it to be too negative advice...
Now, Finns know that they need to adapt to foreigners in the future..but then the catch-22 is that its a long and difficult road for Finns to create a massive Training, education and learning program to attract foreign labor, integrate them, train the Finns to adjust to that foreign population.etc etc..as that becomes a burden for the society which in turn takes away the self-created wealth..
AS for the foreigners who are giving advice here..They have either been very lucky..some have endured painful experiences, others planned and organized, others endured financial losses, family issues etc etc..and those are the advices that you get..
AS for Hank and McCowboy, EP, etc etc who are Finns here to help face the reality and alleviate the pain for foreigners, give them some gratitude than brickbats..for when you come and live the "Reality" here...you will thank them..
now..which idiot said that jobs should be in English? - iI am beginning to wonder if it is an idiot or stupid...someone help me..figure this thing out..
Here is an interesting story which appeared in Irish news today, as the OP is Irish and so am I it shows me my home country is stepping up to the fact things are changeing, although at a must faster rate than here, but the principle is the same. People need help (some more than others) when they arrive in a new country to deal with day to day things in a way they can understand. I have lived here for 8 years and can truthfully say not having everything translated for me has not been a problem, but do believe major companies especially utilities should have a option for those who don´t speak Finnish or Swedish. Bord Gais is the national gas supplier btw. [/url]http://rte.ie/news/2007/0829/integration.html[url]
Sorry that link didn´t work http://rte.ie/news/2007/0829/integration.html
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Mölkky-Fan
- Posts: 1401
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:47 pm
- Location: Vantaa (Finnish), Vanda (Swedish), Fanta (English)
The English language jobs in Finland website exists:
http://www.uranus.fi/en/?SESSID=942f13e ... daa0cce9c1
There is advice as to where to apply and how to do it. I think that it is not full of English language jobs... but I think that is what we have been trying to say!
http://www.uranus.fi/en/?SESSID=942f13e ... daa0cce9c1
There is advice as to where to apply and how to do it. I think that it is not full of English language jobs... but I think that is what we have been trying to say!
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
http://blog.enogastronomist.com | http://blog.enogastronomisti.com
As narky and sarcastc as Hank is, he does bring a dose of realism to what would be a rather naive and impractical guide to finding work in Finland. The simple fact is that there aren't many options here for foreigners if you can't speak or don't understand the lingo. No question about it.
I got lucky and scored a gig at the airport not long after i arrived here but i could speak quite well and understand even better. It's the not most glamorous of jobs but i've managed to learn alot of new skills and have improved my Finnish out of sight in the meantime. I also have been promoted to Loadmaster status which means more training and a pay raise. Yay me!
Don't go getting preachy on all of us who already live here though Jason, you really don't know enough yet to be taking such high moral ground. Suck it up and see how you go when get here. However, remember what you've read on this site and then tell us later if it actually achieved it's purpose or not!
I got lucky and scored a gig at the airport not long after i arrived here but i could speak quite well and understand even better. It's the not most glamorous of jobs but i've managed to learn alot of new skills and have improved my Finnish out of sight in the meantime. I also have been promoted to Loadmaster status which means more training and a pay raise. Yay me!
Don't go getting preachy on all of us who already live here though Jason, you really don't know enough yet to be taking such high moral ground. Suck it up and see how you go when get here. However, remember what you've read on this site and then tell us later if it actually achieved it's purpose or not!
That, and I think Finns have some language gene making them linguistic geniuses.
Hell, no. For example for English it took me 8 years, at least 1-2 hours a day, reading, listening, writing, memorizing, memorizing, memorizing, and very tired sitting muscles, and amazement of an awkward grammar (English was the first foreign language I learned, I didn´t know that also rest of the languages I will learn have stupid grammars, except Estonian, which has logical grammar). I am sure if somebody is ready to do the same with Finnish, their Finnish will be at least on level of my English.What people seem to forget that learning any language means WORK, and it is real work, not just "I´ll take a peak for 15 minutes".
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Karhunkoski
- Posts: 7034
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Hank W.
- The Motorhead
- Posts: 29973
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
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- Contact:
Re: What is with this forum?!!!!!
Its a problem with a bogtrotting culchie like you with light shining out of his arse not realising when Sammy asked you a question - as he expected you missed the point proving that you are "unemployable in your profession without fluent Finnish language" - not to mention "understanding of the cultural psyche".jason cowell wrote:(usually from the ultra negative and anti-foreign poster HANK) "not without fluent and complete finnish language skills". What is the problem????
What is so negative about that? See now you tell your abuse addicts to confess themselves "I am an alcoholic" or "I am an addict" - You yourself need to confess to yourself "My degree is useless" and "I am unemployable".Then we can start the 12 steps to finding a job in Finland. Just like your glue sniffing teenager, when you are qualified, and have some skills, and maybe some employer will find you valuable.
I am not here to wipe your arse or provide you with a bogroll. I can tell you what the two clam shells are for. It is you having the trouble with the concept of clam shells, not I. See now the difference between us is I can get a job in Ireland yesterday, whilst you'll be whining in Finland the day after tomorrow.
My advice is and has always to have been to find oneself a job and then move to Finland. Moving to Finland and then trying to find a job - see now the Lord does not provide. And Satan came among the Sons of God and Lord said "look at my Faithful Servant Jason Cowell, who is looking for a Job in Finland". and Satan said "Make him learn Finnish and he will curse you."
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.