School Shooting in Finland!

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catfish78
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Post by catfish78 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:37 pm

ScubaGirl wrote:OMG!!!! I can't believe it. I would say that the MAIN reason I decided to raise my daughter in Finland was because many of the crimes/dangers against children we have back in the states just simply do not exist over here. One example I had was school shootings. I hope this doesn't become a trend. If the guns are readily available and even if the purpose is meant for hunting, (which I'm totally against btw, but that's a whole other issue) any disgruntled teenager/kid who wants to get back at a teacher, bully, ex, etc... can just think, "hey, I can pull a Jokela if anyone crosses me". My god, what a sad world we're living in if Finland isn't even immune to this sort of thing. I'm really in shock.
Please expailn this to me. I do not understand your rational on this matter. I lived in the US all my life and nothing like this every occured anywhere close to me. The world's kids have problems not just the kids in the US. You can never stop people from committing crimes such as this. Even with out the use of guns. Irrational killings have taken place since the dawn of man. Location and access to fire arms do not make poeple kill other people. This person was clearly disturbed. Warning signs may have been present but no parent, I think, would think their child capable of such a horrific act.

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and the family's.


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odon
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Post by odon » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:52 pm

the real issue is how did he get the gun?? such a gun that you can kill people?? that seems really hard to explain in finland, even to get a pepper spray you need a permit??

Such a loss of innocent lives, and sorrow in many families....

:cry:

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Karhunkoski
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Post by Karhunkoski » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:13 pm

Cory wrote: Anybody who is hell bent about getting a firearm will find one somewhere.
Agreed, very much.
Political correctness is the belief that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Megstertex
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Post by Megstertex » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:26 pm

A lone wolf among sheep. I am shocked but not really surprised. These teenagers seem to have a lot of rage, and no real outlets.

The schools here are not even really equipped to deal with these situations, or prevent them. The teachers are certainly not trained to deal with these things the way they've had to be in the U.S.-where all the training in the world is not going to stop a demented sociopath bent on destruction.

I really hope that Finland doesn't start to go the way of metal detectors, bio-chem attack drills, and bomb threats etc.

But prevention is key, and I guess hopefully the gun owners tend to be registered and responsible for the most part--you can't just buy a gun at your R-kioski. And then mental health issues for teenagers shouldn't be so taboo or institutionalized, they should be able to a)get the help they need without being stigmatized and b) there needs to be more awareness to spot and refer students that may need some kind of intervention--there are plenty.

My condolences to the victims and their families, and the family of the gunman.
Megs

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Allard88
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Post by Allard88 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:36 pm

EP wrote:I don´t think this is some future trend. I read the guy´s text (now removed), and it is obvious that he is suffering from severe schizophrenia. Nobody healthy thinks that he is God.
I've read the text too.. It's still in the google cache.
It's very sad.. He must've had some very huge problems.. But that doesn't justify this.
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Desundial

Post by Desundial » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:41 pm

Cory wrote:
odon wrote:the real issue is how did he get the gun?? such a gun that you can kill people??
Any gun can kill a person. There are 7.6 registered guns for every 10 citizens in Finland. Maybe someone he knew was in a gun club and that person wasn't too careful with where they put the weapon? Anybody who is hell bent about getting a firearm will find one somewhere. Gun clubs and shooting is a big hobby here.
I agree with cory on this last comment. Wake up folks, this is a gun obsessed society - albeit one where adult gun owners in general take their legal responsibilites seriously (i.e. the requirement to lock up their guns).

Even fakie guns are super popular here. Ever seen all the pellet gun shops? Who the heck needs all those realistic firearm replicas but people who have a few power issues? I regularly run into young nieghborhood kids (8?? 10?) (vantaa/espoo border) playing war games in full camo with their pellet rifles and army gear in the forests around my house. I've even seen them biking to school in their kit with their pellet rifles. Now that one, I have to say really turned my head - I guess now the grade schools might think twice about letting even reproduction firearms on campus.

I'm not saying that playing with pellot guns causes things liketuusula - just that one shouldn't be naive and think of finland as a firearm free (or nutter free, for that matter) place.

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Post by EP » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:07 pm

this is a gun obsessed society
Sorry, I disagree. Boys have always played fighting games, if they don´t have a toy gun, they shoot with sticks. But I agree that toy guns should not look too much like real ones. 20-30 years ago there was a "no toy guns" tendency among parents, but it turned out that trying to make little boys play only "peaceful" plays was actually harming them. You cannot make a little girl out of a little boy. So I compromized and gave my boy a water pistol. He was allowed to use it in sauna. We served a couple of years as his targets.

I think we have guns well under control. What we don´t have under control is mental health and detecting mental illnesses in time. A person who write:"I cannot say that I am of the same race as this miserable, arrogant and selfish human race. No! I have evolved a step higher" is severily ill.

Desundial

Post by Desundial » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:18 pm

I was thinking of the "toy" pellet guns that are a heck of a lot more serious than a toy water gun - or the eternal improvised stick "gun" made by boys the world over. Have you seen these pellet guns? Go to the upstairs "toy" pellet gun shop near the bristol movie theater in helsinki. Personally I can't stomach the place - replicas of every type of assault rifle ever made. If you yourself are not a gun owner you would probably not realize they were fake if one were, say staring you down in a violent encounter. Anyway it's not really little kids shopping there but sad adult guys. Or maybe they are all just buying them for the eight-year olds in my neighborhood. :roll:

*I should probably say as background info, before I get too many feathers up, that dh has one of the simple rifle repro pellet guns (it's fun...) is a registered hunter, and at the home place they have guns - all legal, locked up and stored safely. In his family a gun is a functional hunting tool, not a shiny, magic "makes me all powerful" weapon, as he likes to interpret as the gun attitude of Finnish city folk.

Desundial

Post by Desundial » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:24 pm

To get back to the post which asked how he got ahold of such a gun, I'm adding this for those too busy/unable to read the previous links (from : cnn, link below).

Police also said that the gun Auvinen used, which was fully licensed, had been purchased less than a month ago on October 19. The legal age limit to own a gun in Finland is 18, which Auvinen passed in June of this year.

He had a recommendation from a shooting club when he obtained the gun, police added, and practised sharp-shooting as a hobby at a shooting range.

Finland, which enjoys a strong tradition of hunting, has a high proportion of gun ownership, with two million firearms owned in a nation of only five million.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11 ... index.html

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Post by Rosamunda » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:45 pm

EP wrote: it is obvious that he is suffering from severe schizophrenia.
No.... not obvious. Otherwise how would he have got through 18 years in a welfare state, in daily contact with maybe a dozen different teachers, routine medical visits at school, not to mention all the other OPO, counselling etc etc that high school kids go through? If his condition was sooooo obvious then the whole "system" has fallen apart. How many other undiagnosed schizophrenics are out there????????

At a guess I would say that this child is a victim of "indifference" as much as schizophrenia, the latter can be treated with medication.

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Post by sammy » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:46 pm

penelope wrote:At a guess I would say that this child is a victim of "indifference" as much as schizophrenia, the latter can be treated with medication.
Treading controversial waters here, but would there be even a distant possibility that 'holding dangerously violent and extremist views' is not necessarily always/by default what we easily label 'mental insanity'?

Keeping in mind that what eventually happened is plainly wrong and horrible... and certainly not any more acceptable, whatever the motivation behind it... just wondering if that could be one of the reasons for no-one interfering, or suspecting...? That is - people can be evil and cruel even if they're not strictly speaking 'completely insane' can't they?

I'd very much like to believe that he is/was actually insane, but is that just my own psychological defence against things like that actually happening?

Just guessing & pondering - I'm probably wrong, the guy's ramblings appeared totally bonkers to me despite my speculative and abstract musings above - and anyway none of this makes any difference to the victims and their nearest & dearest :cry:

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rinso
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Post by rinso » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:08 pm

it is obvious that he is suffering from severe schizophrenia.
History has many examples of people with the same kind of "superior being" madness. Only they were a little smarter and didn't kill people before they were in power. After that they had others to do the killing for them.

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ScubaGirl
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Post by ScubaGirl » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:09 pm

catfish78 wrote: Please expailn this to me. I do not understand your rational on this matter. I lived in the US all my life and nothing like this every occured anywhere close to me. The world's kids have problems not just the kids in the US. You can never stop people from committing crimes such as this. Even with out the use of guns. Irrational killings have taken place since the dawn of man. Location and access to fire arms do not make poeple kill other people. This person was clearly disturbed. Warning signs may have been present but no parent, I think, would think their child capable of such a horrific act.

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and the family's.
I was 110% sure that if I ever had a child, that I'd raise her/him in America. Even when I became pregnant less than 2 yrs ago I was certain that I'd move back home to raise my daughter there. I even went back for a couple months during my pregnancy to get things in order and make a plan for the big move. It was during that trip that I noticed things around me with new eyes (the eyes of a mother). The Amber alert, Dateline's, "To Catch a Predator", metal detectors in schools (even in the supposed good neighborhoods way out in the burbs, far from any inner cities), security guards and in some cases police officers patrolling schools, mall shootings, workplace shootings, school shootings, gang violence, kidnappings, mass murder, serial killers, "stranger danger", carjackings, etc... All things that are very rarely (if ever) heard of in Finland, yet you can hear about daily on the news in America.

At my baby shower I heard other mothers talk about how they can't even let their children play outside without constant adult supervision in fear of a pedophile or other kind of weirdo snatching up their child. I'm not even talking about toddlers, I'm talking about 10-12 yr olds. Over the summer here in Helsinki at my local park I met a 6 & 7 yr old brother/sister playing without any adults supervising them. They freely talked to me and they even told me where they lived (without me asking) and I remember thinking how if this were America that this would never have happened, due to parents having to teach their children to NEVER talk to strangers under ANY circumstances. At this same park there is a big box full of toys that stays unlocked all day & night and nobody worries about people stealing them, where as in the states they'd be stolen in a second. These are just a couple minor examples.

Just because this (a school shooting) never happened anywhere close to where you grew up in the states doesn't change the fact that it does happen with some amount of regularity across the country (even in an Amish community!). When people think of school shootings they don't think of Finland, they think of the USA, and with reason. "Going postal" is a common expression used in America BECAUSE of how many shooting incidents that have occurred in the workplace, especially in the post office.

I'm not saying that crime doesn't happen in Finland. Of course it does. It happens everywhere, but statistically you can't even compare the 2 countries when it comes to the amount of crime committed and there certainly ARE several types of crimes that exist in the states that do not exist here (or at least not nearly on the same level).

My first job was when I was 15 yrs old was as a tele-marketer and you know what I was selling? Home security systems! I don't even know anyone here who has an alarm on their house.

On the issue of firearms, a lot of gun advocates like to say "guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people" and while that is true to some extent (if someone is planning to kill, they'll try to do it by whatever means possible), we must also realize that if this same kid used a knife instead of a gun I highly doubt he would've gotten away with murdering EIGHT people. It's easier to fight off someone with a knife than with a gun. Guns DO kill people.

I'm very afraid of copycat incidents, but only time will tell.

Let me end this by saying that I know it's trendy to be anti-American these days, but I am certainly NOT one of those people. There are plenty of things I don't like about Finland, but this doesn't change the fact that I think it's a better society as a whole to raise children in.

EDIT: Though I must add that the incidents of today leave me feeling a bit weary :?
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EP
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Post by EP » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:21 pm

No.... not obvious. Otherwise how would he have got through 18 years in a welfare state, in daily contact with maybe a dozen different teachers, routine medical visits at school, not to mention all the other OPO, counselling etc etc that high school kids go through?
Schizophrenia is not something children have. It´s most common target group are young adults between 20 and 30. So while this early safety net could catch depression cases (and too often doesn´t), there is no way it could catch potential schizophreniacs. They become ill after they have left the net.

The best coverage was on channel 3. They interviewed Salli Saari, a well-known youth psychiarist (ehem, whom I also met when I had some troubles in my early 20s). She had studied the boy´s messages in YouTube, and her diagnoses was schizophrenia.

Amandine.K
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Post by Amandine.K » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:37 pm

Actually children can have schizophrenia. It's not something that appears once you hit 18.


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