Learning this language....

[Rob A.]

....
I would have expected to see sauna mentioned in the “Culture” section (especially as it is one of the few Finnish words that have been adopted to other languages and that website was all about languages) and could have added some other stereotypical “Finnish cultural exports” or tendencies to the list myself.

....you mean like 'studded bicycle tires"... Nokia Hakkapelliitta ....and Nokia cellphones...



Oh...Yes....and all those great Suunto products...and I'm definitely serious here......

http://search.mec.ca/?Ntt=suunto&N=10

...MEC is THE "primo" outdoor equipment supplier in Canada...and it's a co-op, too...which makes a guy like me happy...


...and my bicycle heart rate monitor is a "Polar"...Kempele, Suomi...

[Alastair]

Don't forget that overpriced marimekko and wierd coloured glass kitsch that I sometimes see around the place. Silly foreigners, waste money on booze and salmiakki, it's the Finnish way.

[sinikala]

Anyway, I’ve used that method (among others) for refreshing my Swedish when watching Swedish TV channels on the cable.

So the answer was no then. Learning something new and refreshing and are two completely different things. The two foreign language idea would be fine for revision, or as a challenge for an advanced learner.

I think you might have been misreading my suggestion a bit. I was proposing that method primarily for building one’s everyday vocabulary: learning the Finnish names for all those silly little things, concepts, and actions you encounter in your daily life... words like vessaharja, lampunvarjostin, kuorsata, or ovenkarmi... as well as getting to know various everyday idioms.

Are many people out there struggling with nouns? As I already mentioned it's the fine detail and once again, I get the feeling that you are suggesting this from a theoretical viewpoint, as it is exactly the explanation of idioms and phrases that partners tend not to be able to do.

Of course, “forcing” it on one’s spouse by not “hearing” what he says if he says it in the “wrong” language was more of a tongue-in-cheek suggestion than serious advice... but if you have agreed to try something like this, that could nonetheless serve as a reminder... that is, if he is initially forgetting about it and slipping out of his expected role as a “Finnish only” speaker, or just plain trying to take the easy way out.

And I didn’t mean that such language immersion would need to be observed in a ridiculously strict and all-encompassing way, either. You could have designated “off days” or “off hours”, scheduling them whichever way you please... or perhaps you’d just like to have a random “Finnish only” day every now and then (say, every Wednesday and Saturday!), instead of having the immersion experiment “on” continuously. To each their own!

Have you ever tried this? It's a method espoused mainly by people who've never used it.

Lots of stuff about IRC / ICQ

Ummm ... ok.... but it looks like it involves a small proportion of the population (1 in 50?) who are glued to a monitor all day.

[Jukka Aho]

Anyway, I’ve used that method (among others) for refreshing my Swedish when watching Swedish TV channels on the cable.

So the answer was no then. Learning something new and refreshing and are two completely different things. The two foreign language idea would be fine for revision, or as a challenge for an advanced learner.

I’m not sure why “two foreign languages” would be some immense deal-breaker here. You don’t need to care about the “other” language at all; it is basically just a reading exercise with time limits and visual clues. Sometimes deciphering what is going on might be rather easy, sometimes harder, depending entirely on the subject matter and vocabulary. (I’m not only referring to movies and serials here but also to prerecorded interviews, talk shows, and the like.)

Are many people out there struggling with nouns?

Having not taken any survey on the matter, I can’t say for sure. (Can you?) Obviously, verbs, adjectives, particles, and other types of words would also come with the deal, so I’m not sure why you’re only talking about “nouns”.

As I already mentioned it's the fine detail and once again, I get the feeling that you are suggesting this from a theoretical viewpoint, as it is exactly the explanation of idioms and phrases that partners tend not to be able to do.

I’ve first learned about many English idioms by their use in context; not knowing exactly what the phrase refers to, or what it would mean when translated directly to Finnish, but still “getting it”, from the context. The explanations for various idioms are often quite obscure. (Case in point: “red tape”.) I don’t think they’re quite that important for learning the phrase and its practical usage as you make it out to be, but every learner is different, of course, and it’s always nice to know such details if someone can explain them.

[“Forcing” other people to speak Finnish only]

Have you ever tried this? It's a method espoused mainly by people who've never used it.[/quote]
The “mythical” Brazilian exchange student learned his Finnish exactly this way. Of course, that was probably not the only method he was using.

Lots of stuff about IRC / ICQ

Ummm ... ok.... but it looks like it involves a small proportion of the population (1 in 50?) who are glued to a monitor all day.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to. People are “active” on IRC and other similar systems as they please and as fits their schedule. Just like with any other messaging system, really.

[sinikala]

I’m not sure why “two foreign languages” would be some immense deal-breaker here. You don’t need to care about the “other” language at all; it is basically just a reading exercise with time limits and visual clues. Sometimes deciphering what is going on might be rather easy, sometimes harder, depending entirely on the subject matter and vocabulary. (I’m not only referring to movies and serials here but also to prerecorded interviews, talk shows, and the like.)

I have only tried that with foreign languages where I have some understanding of the original (French / German / Spanish) with Finnish subtitles. To use it purely as a language learning tool where you sit down pausing often and checking vocab / phrases, then it would surely work, but unless you have some understanding of the orginal language to give clues, it would offer no obvious benefit IMHO over watching a Finnish programme and reading the subtitles. Seems like a lot of work for little benefit, and something which for me at least would be less than enjoyable (learning should be fun).

Are many people out there struggling with nouns?

Having not taken any survey on the matter, I can’t say for sure. (Can you?) Obviously, verbs, adjectives, particles, and other types of words would also come with the deal, so I’m not sure why you’re only talking about “nouns”.

As most of your examples were nouns.

As I already mentioned it's the fine detail and once again, I get the feeling that you are suggesting this from a theoretical viewpoint, as it is exactly the explanation of idioms and phrases that partners tend not to be able to do.

I’ve first learned about many English idioms by their use in context; not knowing exactly what the phrase refers to, or what it would mean when translated directly to Finnish, but still “getting it”, from the context. The explanations for various idioms are often quite obscure. (Case in point: “red tape”.) I don’t think they’re quite that important for learning the phrase and its practical usage as you make it out to be, but every learner is different, of course, and it’s always nice to know such details if someone can explain them.

The teaching / learning method has to be appropriate to the learner. You are Finnish, so you received how many years of formal English instruction in school? 7? 8? 9? The OP has been here 3.5 years and whilst she has some exposure, the number of equivalent study hours she's had are going to be what? 100h per year at best. Equivalent to a few years of high school level tuition.

Simply speaking in Finnish at home - having "Finnish only days" without reinforcement or supporting studies will result in things not being communicated, frustration (on both sides) and IMHO rapid failure.

At home, we speak about 1/3 Finnish, 2/3 English. I have been here almost 3x as long as the OP, and outside of the home & workplace I speak only Finnish, but I can tell that if my wife were to speak only Finnish to me, then a lot would go over my head, or we have to slow the conversation down whilst I quiz her on what she just said (I do this anyway - and I know the limits that can be pushed). Once again, a direct question .... do you have any experience of that method, or not?

[“Forcing” other people to speak Finnish only]

Have you ever tried this? It's a method espoused mainly by people who've never used it.

The “mythical” Brazilian exchange student learned his Finnish exactly this way. Of course, that was probably not the only method he was using.

Having never met one, I'm sceptical of the mythical "fluent in 6 months" prodigies, though I suppose a vocabulary of 5000 words would take only half a year if you could only memorise 25 new words per day. Sounds doable.

It took me only a 2 months of rote learning; listening to a couple of tapes in the car (Berlitz / Terttu Leney) to pick up the basics of counting, ordering in restaurants / shops prior to moving here. That I could make myself understood is not to be confused with any degree of fluency, aside form being able to identify a few familiar words, my aural comprehension was zero. This may be where these legends arise?

[Alastair]

The guy at my school 18 months before me was a smug Canadian bastard who learnt Finnish is six months or so I kept being told. When I met him oh how much I wanted to sock him just once. Still I was in the top twenty percentile or better of the 200+ exchangers I met at Finnish so I think it was crap to expect it of me. Apparently the guy after me didn't learn any Finnish.

[EP]

The “mythical” Brazilian exchange student

Nothing "mythical" about him, he lived next door to me.

That is how all the high school exhange students learn (Those who are motivated, others not). They are in 100% Finnish speaking enviroment 24/7.

Also a Texan girl that my brother-in-law had learned well. Last Cristmas she came back to spend Christmas here, and she had not forgotten in three years.

Two years ago brother-in-law had a girl from Alaska. She didn´t learn anything, maybe "kiitos". But she had no motivation contrary to M from Texas. She really tried. Read her "little brother´s" children´s books, watched Finnish TV, and insested that the family speaks Finnish only to her.

[Karhunkoski]

I used to have a mate with a 12" donger, his "party trick" in our late teens was to swing it like a lasso when ladies were present . Now he was mythical, but certainly in a minority.


But back to language. I don't doubt that some high school kids will learn much quicker than those who are older, for a whole host of reasons. However, I would suggest that it's rather unfair, demotivating and not a little annoying for some, to hear FF's regulars constant indirect accusations of laziness


All the foreigners I know took 4 years+ of hard graft before they reached a reasonable level of Finnish language skills. One professional couple have lived in Finland for 25 years, yet when they leave Finland for a month in the summer, they feel like beginners with the language when they return. I hate to think what they would be like after 3 years. Perhaps they're just lazy, stupid, or both.

[Pursuivant]

you learn fast when you are younger... my "illusion" of fluency like in speaking German or Spanish was learning to "parrot". which is how I learnt English as a kid. just mnemnonics. German is easy when I just use the article döö and swallow all the endings... I had a mere elementary Spanish with me when I had to go in a bilingual environment - or actually at times it was a majority environment and I was dragged from the back office as only one of the gringos who could "habla"... I learned what the phraseology was and as usually everybody had the same problem... jejejejejeje... luna de miel..jejejejejeeje....cama matrimonial...jejejejejee... camas separadas... jejejejeje... yeah, honeymooners booked into bunk beds or actually they had beds but they needed to be bolted together... now when their little problem got fixed all of a sudden people would run into me in the hallway and unburden their hearts and I was out there on a bicycle... you learn a *lot* of language if you have to... but then again it was more fun in the "latino disco"... all the anglos had some aversion to that so I had the "blondie factor" working for me...

[Mark I.]

...I'd like to hear how the native speakers respond to these comments...

Those claims are mostly inaccurate, false or incorrect.

(I'm too lazy to spend half an hour to - say making list of Finnish culture exports - and making long & accurate explanations...)

[Pursuivant]

Having never met one, I'm sceptical of the mythical "fluent in 6 months" prodigies, though I suppose a vocabulary of 5000 words would take only half a year if you could only memorise 25 new words per day. Sounds doable.

well, I can say this - I've neverevernever had any formal teaching in Estonian. and my teacher is I've had workmates from there who spoke no or very little Finnish... we have a pidgin creole of sorts but we get these "blank moments" and need to "explain" stuff... now as a result and learning a local dialect I call up people like renting a room or some mutual acquaintance they are amazed as they can't figure out *who* is calling as I "sound local"... but then again I can watch the etv2, listen to radio and read newspapers so I am "immersed"... usual comment I get is "how long have you lived in Finland" instead of "how long have you been learning Estonian" - so I guess the immersion method works to an extent. not that I could read heavy literature nor write anything sensible... for that I'd need to go on a course.

[Karhunkoski]

I'm sure there are lots of Swedes who have managed to immerse themselves in the Danish language too

[Pursuivant]

especially in Malmö and Helsingborg... now that the Danes tend to commute

[Karhunkoski]

1) The bandage was wound around the wound.
2) The farm was used to produce produce.
3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
4) We must polish the Polish furniture.
5) He could lead if he would get the lead out.
6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
7) Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was
time to present the present.
A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
10) I did not object to the object.
11) The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
13) They were too close to the door to close it.
14) The buck does funny things when the does are present.
15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.
16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
17) The wind was too strong to wind the sail.
18) After a number of injections my jaw got number.
19) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
20) I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
21) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?

[kay30]

Heh. I didn't even know there really WAS a Brazilian exchange student. I just picked Brazil randomly because every time I hear that someone learned Finnish in 6 months, it is always someone from either Brazil or Mexico (or someplace warm). Either that, or that one Brazilian exchange student really got around.

And I still don't buy it. While the Finns may have think this person was 100% fluent, there is no real telling how much they really got. I have reasonable understanding of simple spoken topics in Finnish and it would amaze you how often people think, and insist to me, how much more fluent I am than I know I actually am. If I say, I don't understand, they don't really believe me. So I just keep my mouth shut and that is probably why they think I know more than I do.

Obv. not the case for everyone but this might be where some of those legendary mythical creatures come from.