Eon or Fortum - Whichone is cheaper

[DMC]

Penelope, you could test how well your existing radiators would cope if you changed to a heat pump. Just lower the temperature of the water circulating in the radiators, and monitor how it affects the air temperature around the house. It may be that the temperature is unchanged, but your boiler runs more. If that is so, a heat pump may be OK, although you also need to consider how well it would cope in very cold spells.

As regards payback time, this is difficult as there are so many variables and you can come up with whatever answer you want to. I reckon your 8-9 years estimate is OK but difficult to prove. Our measure is that last winter, using the heat pump, we spent about 10% less on electricity than we spent on oil during the previous winter. (Both winters were very mild). However, the oil cost only covered space heating whilst our electricity bill covered space heating (via the heat pump), hot water (tempered by the heat pump & solar before going to a seperate hot water tank), plus normal household stuff like cooking, lights, multiple computers running 24/7 etc etc. So in effect we got our previous electricity costs reduced to nothing and saved 10% on our heating costs as well, even ignoring oil price inflation.

meplusthree, good point about the electricity supply upgrade. We had to do the same, though just for the heat pump, not the hot water. Your caveat about "if your house is reasonably well insulated" is another good point. Money spent on improving insulation often has a quicker payback time than changing heating systems.
I am surprised your pipes in the garden are not buried deeper. What is the temperature of the fluid coming back from the field in mid-winter?

[Rosamunda]

Your caveat about "if your house is reasonably well insulated" is another good point. Money spent on improving insulation often has a quicker payback time than changing heating systems.

Do you have any ideas / tips about improving insulation in a 70s-80s built house????

I was thinking about increasing the loft insulation. Do you know what are the recommendations these days (eg materials used / thickness) ? We installed some new windows in the kitchen and living room with gas filled insulation but do not intend to replace the other windows as there is nothing wrong with them. The front door is a bad fit though... and the garage door is knackered (we have a heated garage, which is SO's play-room) so I guess they should be replaced. Any other ideas or quick fixes???

[meplusthree]

I was surprised about the depth required for the pipes but that is what is recommended for southern Finland I have two readings for the coming and going alcohol/water mix to the pipes- liuos maaha & liuos maast unfortunately the 'maast' temp sensor is dodgey currently reads 49 deg C !!! the maaha currently reads 8.5 and IIRC maaha goes down to about -5 in the middle of winter but it may be lower. I could only work out which was coming and going when both temp sensors were working.
Regarding the insulation issue, my problem was mainly caused by drafts (read gales) passing through the original 70's part, this has the overlapping vertical planks for the outside walls then tar paper then the insulation. Over the years the mice and bats had made their home in there so it was not in good shape. I also noticed that the local bird population took every opportunity to steal the insulation material from the roof space !. The other factor was the floor was made from tongued and grooved planks which had shrunk over the years. I re-newed one section of wall adding a 'wind board' layer and the floor has been covered with laminate this has made a big difference.
Renewing the walls was not expensive in terms of materials but took time.
Just to qualify one thing the temp in the main living area is around stays between 20-25 and in mid winter it is probably about 20 which to some people may be a little cold but as I was brought up in an old stone house in Yorkshire with no double glazing or roof insulation it is positively toasty for me.

[Upphew]

Regarding the insulation issue, my problem was mainly caused by drafts (read gales) passing through the original 70's part, this has the overlapping vertical planks for the outside walls then tar paper then the insulation. Over the years the mice and bats had made their home in there so it was not in good shape. I also noticed that the local bird population took every opportunity to steal the insulation material from the roof space !. The other factor was the floor was made from tongued and grooved planks which had shrunk over the years. I re-newed one section of wall adding a 'wind board' layer and the floor has been covered with laminate this has made a big difference.

Okay, now you have made your house as airtight as modern houses are. Did you upgrade the ventilation as well? Modern houses are airtight, because of motorized ventilation and without that, you just renovated your house to so called "mold house"...

[meplusthree]

Okay, now you have made your house as airtight as modern houses are. Did you upgrade the ventilation as well? Modern houses are airtight, because of motorized ventilation and without that, you just renovated your house to so called "mold house"...

Again on FF someone jumps in with 'helpful' comments without either reading the posts properly or all the relevant facts !

Where in my post did I say I made the house airtight? I said that I added ´wind board´ to one section of the house and wind board is breathable, the front and back elevations still have the original tar paper system.Trust me there is plenty of natural ventilation here without the need for motorised help.
I believe that the mould problem occurs in those houses which a plastic vapour barrier in the walls and ceilings and I don't have this in the older parts of the house.

[Upphew]

Okay, now you have made your house as airtight as modern houses are. Did you upgrade the ventilation as well? Modern houses are airtight, because of motorized ventilation and without that, you just renovated your house to so called "mold house"...

Trust me there is plenty of natural ventilation here without the need for motorised help.
I believe that the mould problem occurs in those houses which a plastic vapour barrier in the walls and ceilings and I don't have this in the older parts of the house.

It occurs easiest with plastic, true. But good ventilation is only way to get rid of water in air. And warmth, water and nutrients is all that mold needs. Did you install that laminate without vapour barrier?

[Rosamunda]

Just to qualify one thing the temp in the main living area is around stays between 20-25 and in mid winter it is probably about 20 which to some people may be a little cold but as I was brought up in an old stone house in Yorkshire with no double glazing or roof insulation it is positively toasty for me.

Me too, 20 degs is fine. But I have noticed that MIL is frozen whenever she comes to stay.

[meplusthree]

Standard laminate floor installation foam sheet under the laminate

[DMC]

Do you have any ideas / tips about improving insulation in a 70s-80s built house???? ... Any other ideas or quick fixes???

No ideas specifically aimed at that age of house.
Generally I would start by looking for gaps around doors, door frames, windows, window frames, skirting boards, electrical fittings etc. Draught at gaps where cold air is drawn in are easier to feel than at places where warm air escapes. One tip is to use a joss stick or similar to visually highlight air flow. Start around your ill-fitting doors.

Your boiler room may be worth a detailed look. What is the temperature in there and what would you like it to be? Typically a boiler room is heated by heat lost from tanks & pipes but does not actually need to be warm. So add pipe & tank lagging. Also you could consider the boiler room to be outside your thermal barrier and insulate accordingly. Maybe an exterior-quality door between the boiler room and the interior of the house, for example.

If you change your oil burner to some other type of heating, there may be vents in the boiler room that are no longer required.

We got a quote to photograph our house with a thermal imaging camera to see where we lose heat. It was too expensive for us but if you can get it done at an acceptable price it would give a good idea where to spend your money.

I don't know much about current regulations / recommendations / materials, so I am not the best person to ask. Whatever you do, though, check if the materials you consider using are suitable for the type of construction you have. Houses with a lot of wood need to breath to prevent rot so plastics & similar are often a bad idea.

[thermodix]

True, it is always easier and cheaper on a new build, but it is possible to retrofit to older properties. Our house was built in the 1890s so is not exactly modern. We previously had an oil burner and radiators. We still have them, we simply plumbed a heat pump into the existing heating system. We didn't touch any floorboards or anything else inside the house. The only new pipes are the ones going out to the ground loop, and they just go straight out of the house. We kept the oil burner for backup / topup but haven't needed it.
What is the temperature of the water in your heating system? If it is low enough you may not need to change to underfloor heating. A heat pump will be OK up to about 55C - although the cooler the circulation, the more efficient the heat pump will be. That's why heat pumps are a good match for underfloor heating, where the circulating temperatures can be down in the 30s. As an alternative to converting to underfloor heating you could consider adding more radiators so that the heat output required from each one would be lower and the circulating temperature could be reduced.
Your roof may not be ideal for solar panels. Assuming you are at Helsinki lattitude you would want the panels at 75 degrees, i.e. almost vertical. Ours are mounted on a south-facing wall.
If you go for both the heat pump and the solar thermal, seriously consider linking them so the solar panels can heat the fluid returning from the ground loop, before it gets to the heat pump. Our installer advised against that. At the time I didn't know enough to ignore him, but I wish I had.

I think you may try to see this thing guys.... about FCA continues probe of Fortum/E.ON ... http://www.kilpailuvirasto.fi/cgi-bin/e ... 2006-03-03 hope this helps you a little...



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Programmable Thermostats

[Cod]

..have you guys noticed how sustainable heating systems just haven't caught on with the new-builds ?

Having worked for 7 years in a 'sustainable' design architecture practice that was up for Stirling Prize for the green supermarket in Greenwhich:



the sad news is that:

a: it was a one hit wonder, no new commisions came on the back of it
b: the technology is sound but in the long term - commercially unviable and inflexible.
c: the savings are peanuts compared to other unsustainble practices in the retail supply chain.

The same went for housing. I spent alot of time researching this for a 20 storey residential tower for Paddington. Ultimately, the best thing you can do is to insulate. In fact, you can run a house on people heat, cooking heat, electrical appliance heat and a 15 watt cat - even in Finland. But it stinks of cooking fumes, body odour and cat fur.

The other things, as mentioned above, work - but are too complicated for the rest of the population. Insulation is simple, works and doesn't need a plumber to keep it going.

The best solution in Finland I think is distance heating (the envy of many countries) and insulation. Other technologies are too complicated for this climate for most people other than those, like me, who like fixing things

[DMC]

The other things, as mentioned above, work - but are too complicated for the rest of the population.

The challenge must be to make these things more simple. Or at least make it so that any extra complexity is in the installation so it can be handled by professionals. The day-to-day operation needs to be as simple as possible. At the moment it isn't.

Insulation is simple, works and doesn't need a plumber to keep it going.

I agree with that, but it isn't easy for the average person to determine where to insulate. Would better roof insulation have a better return than better windows, for example? I tried to get someone with an infrared camera to take shots of our house to identify where we were losing heat but the cost was prohibitive, especially when you double it to get before and after pics for comparison.

[Pursuivant]

I thought you could get some county money for that IR thing... something about energy saving project... EU... whatchamacallit...

[DMC]

I thought you could get some county money for that IR thing

I don't understand what you mean by "that IR thing".

[Pursuivant]

the electronic imaging joss stick you were referring to, you can get a cheap IR cam for hire yourself too, but depending if you can save the images is another thing as they're usually nightvision type, and they don't invert as well.