Separate swimming times for women based on religion.

[sammy]

Meanwhile, in the Korso swimming hall

Maahanmuuttajanaisten ja -tyttöjen uintivuoro

Syyskaudella 2009 Korson uimahallissa on uintivuorot seuraavina torstaipäivinä klo 14.30-16.00:
Syyskuu: 17.9. / 24.9.
Lokakuu: 8.10. / 15.10.
Marraskuu: 5.11. / 12.11. / 19.11.
Joulukuu: 3.12.

That is, from September to December a staggering amount of this kind of "separate" swimming times - on eight days, each for one and a half hours. Gasp.

One could of course argue that the women could, if they really want to swim amongst themselves, reserve the swimming hall for a private occasion for a price, just like e.g. some association (or anyone with the money) could do. I suppose this would also have been possible. Then again, it is not necessarily an evil thing for some particular swimming halls to allow for such a trifle as a few separate swimming hours for a group in the society that are generally booted in the groin from all possible directions - first of all, being women, and then also for not being white, and thirdly, as the grande finale, for not being Finnish. I'm exaggerating but just a little.

However these musings just to present another point of view; I do agree on that facet of the matter that segregation is not as such good thing, and I'm not at all sure if this kind of decisions really promote 'integration'... there is a faint whiff of apartheid in the issue... but nevertheless I still somehow can't help feeling that the heated discussions on this particular topic are somewhat a question of



On a lighter but perhaps related note:

Why is it that vegetarians are always militantly demanding vegetarian alternatives? Even in my private life, it seems I need to take their views into consideration whenever a vegetarian visits my home - but by golly, if I'm invited to visit some vegetarians in turn, can I say "mind you, I only eat meat so could you please prepare a steak for me" - NOT! ... is this equality? An example of "when in Rome..." or "adapting to your host's manners and culture"?

[Rick1]

Thirst all lefties,greenies are against apartheid (I agree) and now we let apartheid (I am not allowed to swim with moslim women ) coming in our 'free' world. If you have been following the news in Europe; this is just the beginning of the 'take over' till we have to get used to it. Busdrivers do not want to drive the bus because commercial on bus is different then what they believe in etc. People say they are fleeing from their regime to continue that regime here.

[littlefrank]

Yawn, bore, what a thread, wasn't going to comment, couldn't be arsed. but oh dear at least get the story straight Rick1.

'Ron Heather, 62, an evangelical Christian from Southampton, refused to drive a bus bearing an advert from a national campaign aimed at persuading more people to "come out" as atheists.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... s-campaign

My daughter doesn't take religious class, we have her segregated, the cost to the Finnish tax payer, why don't I just allow her to integrate...

[Pursuivant]

My daughter doesn't take religious class, we have her segregated,

The ET class is *much* more fun...

[Rick1]

Could expect that from flowerhat Frankie ; who said that I have to choose my 'friends' better and who lives in his own what I do not see is not there world:twisted:

If you are able to read the HS you can read there that there is a group of muslim busdrivers who do not want to drive the bus with the commercial saying that there is no god. So the tolerance always have to come from one side.

[AldenG]

There's not a lot of background in that little article.

It would be one thing to demand separate times. It's quite another to inquire whether such times could be allocated.

A swimming hall is a community resource. Muslim immigrants are part of the community. A small part, but a part nonetheless. Finland could always choose not to admit them, but Finland is also the kind of place that if it admits them, it will take reasonable measures to make them welcome.

In general I'm fairly allergic to demands from religious groups that others conform to their values. God knows we see plenty of that in the States. The most ridiculous claptrap they're braying about these days is the notion that the religious in the US -- a nation colonized by religious fanatics for the explicit purpose of practicing religious persecution against non-fanatics or against fanatics of other stripes -- are the oppressed minority.

But suppose there were a big park in Helsinki with a bunch of football fields for people to just show up and form ad hoc teams and play. Then suppose there were a bunch of American expats who wanted to play American football. Suppose they asked if one or two of the fields could be designated for American football a few hours a week. The park administrators would look at the overall load of the park, the number of people who might want to play American football, the number who might want to watch, and then make a decision. I expect they'd say "yes." Is that only OK because it's non-religious? Could a park shelter be reserved some afternoon by a religious group for a cookout? Or should religious groups be excluded from using public facilities?

[Pursuivant]

We come to USA and live on welfare and come and DEMAND you to shave off your mounds on baseball pits so we can play Finnish pesäpallo.

Thats the difference Alden.

[AldenG]

Nobody's gonna shave MY mound.

[Rick1]

Well first we have to learn that we are all the same, especially when it is favourably for certain groups and then we go segregate and complain that we will not integrate in the society. The so called feminists have given up already on these subjects.

[littlefrank]

Could expect that from flowerhat Frankie ; who said that I have to choose my 'friends' better and who lives in his own what I do not see is not there world:twisted:

If you are able to read the HS you can read there that there is a group of muslim busdrivers who do not want to drive the bus with the commercial saying that there is no god. So the tolerance always have to come from one side.

Could expect that from leather booted Rikki, but I have my views because I have been out of my house and wandered farther than the corner shop, met people from various backgrounds without having preconceived ideas about them.

Good to see that at least Muslim and evangelical christian bus drivers are integrating,which is fare enough for them, now if only atheist bus drivers would refuse to drive buses with religious posters on them, that would be the ticket. Oh no just thought we'd have segregated buses.

[littlefrank]

My daughter doesn't take religious class, we have her segregated,

The ET class is *much* more fun...

The first time I picked Eili up from her non religious class, I asked her what she did and she said 'matematiikka' I thought that's not fair, sounds like she's being punished, I asked her what she thought about doing that and she said 'it was fun daddy'. Strange child.

[network_engineer]

I beg to differ from the post above that uses the example of a few non-local players requesting reservation at a playground. In fact, if a local, of either gender, were to go to these non-local players and ask to play along with, you can be sure the outcome would be pleasant! It is not about segregation at all, not about discrimination. I like one of the earlier posts here about a position for a lifeguard. What if the lifeguard is a male? Discriminate based on gender?

My own view is that this is more or less agreeing not to integrate and getting the support to create a parallel society, one at odds with each other. If it were a one-off situation, it would not be so uncomfortable. But where does it stop? From what is there in the newspapers (unless they are 100% false), it seemingly may not stop here. Situations in other countries are good examples.

My own opinion: Society defines itself, immigrants adapt. If the stance does not chance, then only those willing to adapt and integrate into society would move in here, the others would move on to other places. And yes, IMVHO, it is discriminatory to even allocate such times based on such factors. As I mentioned above (yeah, I am an immigrant), I expect my kid to grow as a Finn, as every other kid on the street. I personally do not even consider it fair that migrants ask the state to pay for teaching their culture, language etc. to their kids. Why? My question has always been: Why is your kid more important than others kids? If all kids cost the county 100 EUR for school per month, why do you deserve 120 per month? You wanna teach your kids about your culture, language etc? Pay for it out of your own pocket.

Likewise here, build your own swimming pools. Public swimming pools are built by taxes paid by all, no one has the right to demand special treatments.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

What was the purpose of the seperate times?

According to the article:

"According to Ombudsman Jukka Lindstedt, time reserved for Muslim women is justified as doing so safeguards the teaching of swimming to immigrants and helps them to adjust to Finland."

Are they actually being taught there? Or is this just his excuse? (I am not asking your opinion, I am actually interested to know if the times are for actual swimming classes).

[biscayne]

I reckon that this is a huge mistake and just a step on the rocky road to giving into Muslim demands on all kinds of things. I can understand and accept that this religion has it's own way of doing things etc. etc., but these people have come to Europe (most of them are foreigners - there might be a few "locals" but not many) in order to avail of the benefits of living here, they really should not be able to demand anything, in all fairness. I'll vote for the Muslim women swimming hours, when Saudi Arabia introduces mixed nude swimming....................

[Rick1]

I reckon that this is a huge mistake and just a step on the rocky road to giving into Muslim demands on all kinds of things. I can understand and accept that this religion has it's own way of doing things etc. etc., but these people have come to Europe (most of them are foreigners - there might be a few "locals" but not many) in order to avail of the benefits of living here, they really should not be able to demand anything, in all fairness. I'll vote for the Muslim women swimming hours, when Saudi Arabia introduces mixed nude swimming....................

Finnish men and women have been fighting for 100 years what they try to break down again and nobody (wants to) sees it.In many countries people are very afraid to say these things because death treaths are very common then, as can be seen in the murder of Theo van Gogh.