Not Impressed With Finnish Elementary Schools

[Tiwaz]

I admit that this is true, but I do not see how it invalidates my point.

Did my post invalidate your point? There are as many reasons as to why a person does what they do (in this case be a bully) as (hopefully) people change their underclothes.

But fact remains that bullying is extremely rarely something that takes place in private, as vast majority of reasons require AUDIENCE to witness the act to satisfy the need of the bully.

It is not enough to tell others how tough you were to that little twit, they do not necessarily believe it unless you establish first that you CAN do that. By doing it in public.

[Upphew]

But fact remains that bullying is extremely rarely something that takes place in private, as vast majority of reasons require AUDIENCE to witness the act to satisfy the need of the bully.

It is not enough to tell others how tough you were to that little twit, they do not necessarily believe it unless you establish first that you CAN do that. By doing it in public.

Örsypesut were given quite privately, although the result was usually visible afterward. The debate was mainly if the washing was done in toilet or in sink.

[sammy]

At our school (when I was 14 or so) there were a few "tough guys" who used to bully and torment the rest of us, some got the violent treatment, some only verbal abuse or contempt. It was seemingly arbitary whom they picked as their target, but there were a few whom they bullied on a regular basis. Poor sods. In hindsight I must say I feel terrible for not having had enough pluck and courage to go and stand up against them, Robin Hood style. Probably they just would have hit me, too, or thrown my glasses up into the nearest tree.

But I think I sort of know what Tiwaz refers to - the school bullying mostly happened when others were watching (a large crowd, or the toughies' own entourage).

I don't know if the same happened to those who were bullied more seriously (hit hard from behind with no reason, shot into the face with wire ammo from a rubber sling or something equally hilarious), but I found it particularly confusing when you accidentally met some of the toughies, say, during the summer holidays - if they were alone and noticed you they could even wave a greeting and say hello Like a different (normal) person...

[AldenG]

jälki-istunto (is that detention in English?)

Yes, at least in the U.S.

Jälki-istunto is one of those words like keuhkokuume that makes Finnish so straightforward and likable. It just says what it means without dressing it up in Greek or Latin or offbeat words.

IS it not possible to give detention any more? If not, that would really be the inmates running the asylum.

[sammy]

It's the follow-up by the parents that needs to be encouraged.

Ye-ees, but what if and when the parents just do not care? Or do not wish to set any rules for their children? Isn't that largely what causes the problems?

And from what I've heard from my friends who ended up as teachers, some parents can be even more difficult to deal with when they just won't believe "their little darling could ever do anything like that" -> they get ballistic and blame the teacher for lying, for ruining their child's life etc... it's a tough job if/when you have to deal with this kind of social problems on top of the teaching itself.

[Tiwaz]

Well, in some cases it is understandable that parents refuse to believe that their child is misbehaving.

It all depends on how the case is brought to attention. If we have claim of victim and opposite claim of accused and no other evidence... Who is going to be believed? Teacher has to take the issue to attention, but unproven claims of one child against another are not necessarily going to be received as truth by parents of accused.

Of course some parents refuse to believe if there is some evidence, for example in form of teacher witnessing the whole process, but they are hopefully few and far between.

And notice, WHOLE process, not just who beat up who but how it ended up there.

And Cory, as this thread is about school bullying, all my comments are directed towards school environment. Not domestic violence which being called "bullying" is misuse of the word in my opinion.

[Pursuivant]

Well, in some cases it is understandable that parents refuse to believe that their child is misbehaving.

How was it now: my little angels vs. neighbours brats

[sammy]

Some parents don't care. There still needs to remain open communication between parents-school, parents-parents, parents-kids, etc.

Quite true. The "no-one cares" pattern I was referring to is not always at the root of the problem, but in the really problematic cases it can be so. And then it's really difficult to do anything about it.

Even "normal" kids can occasionally succumb to bullying - let's face it, us humans are far from perfect. Some of the problem kids however seem to feel no remorse, any kind of shame, or need to apologise at all

[sammy]

...or is it the energy drinks that we should blame?

http://www.yle.fi/alueet/oulu/2010/11/e ... 54034.html

[AldenG]

once a bully, always a bully. Most probably begins in childhood and if left unreported/untouched, carries over into being a "bully" at home. A wolf is a wolf is a wolf no matter what the label is.

[CH]

One big part of the problem might be that teachers just can not do anything except "talk" anymore... if two kids are fighting and you as much as touch one of them when trying to separate them, you could be in big trouble. Is it even possible to inflict jälki-istunto (is that detention in English?) on the little buggers nowadays?

That is simply a poor excuse from the teachers' side for not actually doing something. "But we cannot doooooo anything!" Oh, sure you can. How about being on the school yard and actually seeing what is happening and taking a stand. In my opinion quite a lot of bullying happens because the teachers look the other way and it becomes systematic. No one is innocent in bullying. There is the bully, the victim, and everybody else around, and by not doing something one allows the bullying to continue.

My daughter's school is part of Kiva Koulu, and they have an anti-bullying team that works with both the bully and the victim to solve the situation. Punishment is not the answer, in my opinion, that leads to absolutely nowhere. Especially in lower grades I would say that most bullying is kids that don't know any better, what they need is being taught proper ways to interact with each other. I would guess quite a lot of bullies don't even realize that what they are doing is bullying, especially not the side kicks and onlookers.

The "poor bully with poor self esteem" idea is quite well established, but I disagree with that, and at least one Swedish (IIRC, I can try to look it up) survey said that bullies actually had better self esteem than the average student. I think, at least in higher grades, that bullies bully because they like the power trip they get out of bullying. Again, I don't think punishment is the way, but instead to teach the kids that what they actually are doing is bullying and to see themselves from the victim's side and how ugly they are behaving.

But in the end, if the school refuses to do something, go to the school board (or whatever they have nowadays), or if it is violence then call the police (even threatening the school with the police should help to get them moving). But unfortunately, the schools with most bullying seems to be the ones that "don't have any bullying" (at least that's what all the head masters those schools seem to say to the reporters and journalists) and refuse to do anything, and unfortunately often the only thing left for parents to do is to move their child to another school. Yes, you can sue a school for failing to provide a safe environment, and I think one should to get them to actually do something. But on the other hand, I would not want my child to go to a school like that.

In other words, don't leave your child to fend for themselves. If the teachers' look away, there is probably a lot of bullying going around in that school, passed from one class to the next, and I would guess also from the teachers side, so that it becomes almost ingrained into the system... BTDT... wasn't fun.

[sammy]

One big part of the problem might be that teachers just can not do anything except "talk" anymore... if two kids are fighting and you as much as touch one of them when trying to separate them, you could be in big trouble. Is it even possible to inflict jälki-istunto (is that detention in English?) on the little buggers nowadays?

That is simply a poor excuse from the teachers' side for not actually doing something. "But we cannot doooooo anything!" Oh, sure you can.

Well, IMO it's not always "merely an excuse" (although what you say it perfectly possible, if the teachers consciously neglect all surveillance during breaks -> not a good thing). The thing is, we can demand as much surveillance and attention as we like but still, the teachers just can't be everywhere all the time during the school day - and at least when it comes to my own experience, the worst bullies are experts in detecting the right time to strike, when no adult/teacher is watching. And more often than not the victims do not dare tell anyone, and there you go.

Other than that, I completely agree with you on those points you presented - and the last thing I'd do is to say "it's just something you have to live with". In normal situations, your suggestions probably would help, at least given enough time. But the awful reality often is that in the worst cases, no manner of talking it over seems to help. At least when I look back on my own school days, there were a couple of guys who seemed completely out of control, and no manner of school intervention seemed to change the way they sometimes behaved Most probably their conditions at home left much to be asked for, and yes I would have gladly seen the day when they'd been "made to see the victims' point of view and realise the wrong of their ways" by the teachers, the police, or their parents, but...

[maxxfi]

Ye-ees, but what if and when the parents just do not care? Or do not wish to set any rules for their children? Isn't that largely what causes the problems?

Apart of the 'my little angel'-effect, I noticed that several parents just bounce all responsibilities to the teacher/school,
so the teacher waits for parent to take action (as they have hands tied) and parent waits for teacher to solve the issue as "it's their job".

[CH]

Apart of the 'my little angel'-effect, I noticed that several parents just bounce all responsibilities to the teacher/school,
so the teacher waits for parent to take action (as they have hands tied) and parent waits for teacher to solve the issue as "it's their job".

Well, as a parent whose child complains about being teased and the teachers being unfair, the problem is that I'm not there. So sorry, but it's the schools job to solve the issue. I can only work with my daughter, but I don't know what is really happening, because... I'm not there. If I at least got out what the crap is really happening I would know better what to do, but since daycare, it has been really, really hard to really get to know what is going on. From daycare it was always "everything is fiiiiiine", until my daughter got enough and started to misbehave... then she got in trouble constantly.

The part that is really hard as a parent is, that it's hard to get a good dialog going. I only know what my daughter says, but I know that she is a very "black and white" person, that takes everything that she sees as someone doing something wrong very hard. So, when she says teasing, it may or may not be (in daycare it was, I witnessed it myself)... but she feels that it is. I'm working with the school psychologist, trying to get something going, but the main problem is that it is very hard to actually do anything as a parent because I'm really the outsider in the whole equation.

Oh, and the teachers sure don't have their hands tied. At least in my daughter's school they don't (like I said, a Kiva Koulu with an anti-bullying team). No, they cannot go and beat the crap out of a child, but since when has that been the solution?

[sammy]

Apart of the 'my little angel'-effect, I noticed that several parents just bounce all responsibilities to the teacher/school,
so the teacher waits for parent to take action (as they have hands tied) and parent waits for teacher to solve the issue as "it's their job".

Well, as a parent whose child complains about being teased and the teachers being unfair, the problem is that I'm not there. So sorry, but it's the schools job to solve the issue. I can only work with my daughter, but I don't know what is really happening, because... I'm not there.

That's very true, the school and the teachers are responsible for what goes on during school hours and on the school premises. The difficult thing is though where the "issue" ultimately lies... and from one point of view I do symphatise with the teachers as well, since on top of actually teaching the kids the stuff they're supposed to teach, they also need to work as surrogate parents (precisely because of the reason you mentioned) - and similarly, they can't know what the home background is... because they're not there.

Agreed -not an easy equation, either way