A dad prepares for unwanted divorce

[Pikeman]

Hi All,

I have had the pleasure of my youngest son's company since yesterday and have waited for him to go to bed before I checked-in to this forum.

During these last few days I have informed my sister and brother, back in Ireland, where they can follow this amazing dicussion and see for themselves how a bunch of strangers are willing to support one another in difficult times. With some sence of achievement I have also shown this site to a couple of workmates who are concerned about me. I have proudly shared with my best friend some of the contents of the PM's I have received. I have gained great strength from your posts.

However all this recent talk of "war" concerns me. I really am tired of fighting, both physically and emotionally. I feel myself being pulled in and have even felt some sense of achievement when I know that I am making life a little more difficult for my wife. Is it really in my best interests to wage an all-out war on my wife? What impact will this have on my relationship with my children? I am already ashamed of the way in which we have behaved towards one another over the last few months. The nasty, disrespectful shouting matches (not always out of earshot of the children)....

At the moment I cannot bear to be in my wife's company for more than a few minutes. I cannot even bring myself to look her in the eye. I am sure my children have noticed this. What impact will this behaviour have on my relationship with my children when they witness this distain?

I believe that I can understand the bitterness and anger that some of you feel towards your ex spouse. Will I help anyone by becoming even more bitter and angry? I appreciate that rights need to be preserved and some sort of fair deal needs to be reached. But at what cost?

When I started this topic one week ago I was seeking assistance on the content of divorce agreements. I have managed to collect lots. Thank you all for your contributions.

Now I ask you something much more difficult. Something personal. I ask you to share your mistakes, your failures and as well as your success stories with regards to the divorce process. How you behaved or acted. Would it be possible for some of you to share these experiences so that we do not continue to make the same mistakes, we can learn from one another and perhaps lighten the burden of this heavy load in even a small way. I know I ask a lot and appreciate that none of you owe me anything. But perhaps you owe it to yourselves and your children.

We go before the "lasten valvoja" within the next few days and I feel that it will just be another battle unless I can get some sound advice. I really am tired of fighting.......

This really did begin as an intelligent, non-judgmental discussion with and for a guy who's in the midst of a challenging time in his life. Lets keep it open....

Looking forward to reading your responses.

-a very tired Pikeman

[diablogun]

Hi All,

I have had the pleasure of my youngest son's company since yesterday and have waited for him to go to bed before I checked-in to this forum.

During these last few days I have informed my sister and brother, back in Ireland, where they can follow this amazing dicussion and see for themselves how a bunch of strangers are willing to support one another in difficult times. With some sence of achievement I have also shown this site to a couple of workmates who are concerned about me. I have proudly shared with my best friend some of the contents of the PM's I have received. I have gained great strength from your posts.

However all this recent talk of "war" concerns me. I really am tired of fighting, both physically and emotionally. I feel myself being pulled in and have even felt some sense of achievement when I know that I am making life a little more difficult for my wife. Is it really in my best interests to wage an all-out war on my wife? What impact will this have on my relationship with my children? I am already ashamed of the way in which we have behaved towards one another over the last few months. The nasty, disrespectful shouting matches (not always out of earshot of the children)....

At the moment I cannot bear to be in my wife's company for more than a few minutes. I cannot even bring myself to look her in the eye. I am sure my children have noticed this. What impact will this behaviour have on my relationship with my children when they witness this distain?

I believe that I can understand the bitterness and anger that some of you feel towards your ex spouse. Will I help anyone by becoming even more bitter and angry? I appreciate that rights need to be preserved and some sort of fair deal needs to be reached. But at what cost?

When I started this topic one week ago I was seeking assistance on the content of divorce agreements. I have managed to collect lots. Thank you all for your contributions.

Now I ask you something much more difficult. Something personal. I ask you to share your mistakes, your failures and as well as your success stories with regards to the divorce process. How you behaved or acted. Would it be possible for some of you to share these experiences so that we do not continue to make the same mistakes, we can learn from one another and perhaps lighten the burden of this heavy load in even a small way. I know I ask a lot and appreciate that none of you owe me anything. But perhaps you owe it to yourselves and your children.

We go before the "lasten valvoja" within the next few days and I feel that it will just be another battle unless I can get some sound advice. I really am tired of fighting.......

This really did begin as an intelligent, non-judgmental discussion with and for a guy who's in the midst of a challenging time in his life. Lets keep it open....

Looking forward to reading your responses.

-a very tired Pikeman

Pikeman,

Let your lawyer fight your legal battle, and work on just being there for your kids. I think you will be OK in the long run, remeber that whenever things are bad, not matter how bad, they will always get better.

[rinso]

However all this recent talk of "war" concerns me.

I'm sorry that my suggestion started this part of the debate.
To be clear, I think your primary concern should be life after the divorce. The situation for you and your kids.
It means fighting for your rights, but also keeping the communication channel to your wife open (if possible).
But if you get beaten up all the time, it is good to know that you also have a stick to fight back (as a last resort).

your failures and as well as your success stories with regards to the divorce process.

I witnessed a nasty divorce up close.
He was in total control and even her lawyer couldn't get much results.
Only when she started to fight back and threatened him, they could penetrate his armour.
They did it however out of earshot of the (small) children, so there was no/little damage done.

Will I help anyone by becoming even more bitter and angry?

No, but successful results in the proceedings will quickly ease the pain from the divorce.

[mccreai]

These situations are extremely difficult and full of emotional pressure to get your word through what seems to be the 'thick skull' of your partner and vice versa. What you have to bear in mind is there are kids involved and these most likely but wrongly will be used as a weapon for emotional blackmail. This whole process is and will continue to be an emotional rollercoaster not only for you and your partner but for your kids. You both must go through all means necessary to make this easy for them... Until you get to the point where tensions have eased and some sort of legally contracted routine has been established all sort of heated confrontations must be refrained from. I am speaking from experience both from my parents divorce which has scarred me to this day and from my separation from my ex from which I have 2 young kids. I made sure i never had arguements or anything because I know how it feels from my childhood, however my oldest (3yo) has now behavioural problems due to confusion and anxiety from the separation.... Be cautious of your kids feelings and do whats right for them. Good luck with everything tho and i hope it all works out well for all parties especially those who didnt ask to be involved... your children.

[Pikeman]

Hi All,

Yet another week has passed and I find myself one week closer to the divorce deadline with quite little progress (regarding agreements) to show. It scares me that my family life is falling apart and I feel as though I am just a bystander.

I made a "huoltosopimus" proposal to my wife. It is based on a lot of input from various internet divorce sites and comments from yourselves, my family and friends. The fact that it is wrtten in English seems to be her biggest concern. Our relationship has now declined so much that I cannot tolerate her company and have difficulty even looking her in the eye. Further discussions will be a major challenge and even though we both agree, in principle, that that we need to work together for the sake of the children, it is proving to be an impossible task.

This weeks meeting with the "lasten valvoja", child welfare officer was a messy experience. It was the first time we both (my wife and I) had this type of joint discussion. I am happy to say that the outcome was a trial period where my youngest gets to spend extended weekends with me and not just the 2/14 nights which we have had up to now. It will be 3/14 nights for a while. Still a small share of my son's time but a step in the right direction.

Based on a PM from one of this Formum's members I have contacted a couple of the "Erosta Elossa" (a support group set up for men going through divorce) group leaders and discussed with them my situation. Both were of the opinion that I should try to join a group in the immediate future. This coming week I will attend an interview to determine whether or not I can participate in one of the soon-to-start groups. Do any of you have personal experience from this type of group therapy that you are willing to share?

I have also aranged the next meeting with my lawyer. On a couple of accasions already I have had a late response from my lawyer which has put me at a minor disadvantage. Not having dealt with lawyers before I am not sure what level of service to expect. Any comments? Suggestions? How can I determine that this, my current lawyer is really putting enough effort into my case?

I thank you all for your suggestions and input so far and as indicated earlier I do intend to share with you the support structure and content that I receive from all so that other's too may benefit from the help offered to me. Your further suggestions, comments and input is still most welcome

- Pikeman

[rinso]

Any comments? Suggestions? How can I determine that this, my current lawyer is really putting enough effort into my case?

From the clients point of view it is never enough.
You are only one of the cases they handle. First they go on the automatic pilot until they discover that's not enough. Then they have to rearrange their work to get results. Most of the family law cases end with more or less standard agreements. No use to put in effort for unreachable demands (not that your situation is like that, but is is their standard approach)

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

Any comments? Suggestions? How can I determine that this, my current lawyer is really putting enough effort into my case?

From the clients point of view it is never enough.
You are only one of the cases they handle. First they go on the automatic pilot until they discover that's not enough. Then they have to rearrange their work to get results. Most of the family law cases end with more or less standard agreements. No use to put in effort for unreachable demands (not that your situation is like that, but is is their standard approach)

Even if stating the obvious, lawyers aim to work according to the law, and naturally there are laws governing custodial arrangements and child support. It's worthwhile familiarizing yourself with the law enough so that you understand what can be realistically expected and demanded. Your lawyer is there also to spell it out for you when needed.

[meplusthree]

First totally agree with Cory's post.

With regard to a permenant child custody agreement made with the "lasten valvoja" this is very difficult to change at a later date unless both parties agree, so be careful before you make a final agreement otherwise it may involve going to court if you want to change it.

For some reason the normal agreement seems to be kids live with mother and father has long weekends, I have 50/50 agreement where kids spend one week with me and one with mother which I feel is far better arrangement for maintaining a proper relationship with my boys.

The main difficulty I had was not knowing how things worked with regard to "lasten valvoja" and child custody arrangements in Finland, but the people at "lasten valvoja" were helpful when I asked questions and even offered to supply a translator at the negotiation agreements. So it is maybe worth talking to them on your own.
Good luck and try not to get too stressed.

[Pikeman]

Thank you again for the latest posts. Thank you Cory for putting us back on track a week or so ago and to meplussthree for the sound advice.

I had already visited the "lasten valvoja" alone just after Christmas. As you experienced also, meplusthree, she was very helpful and explained well my rights and obligations. It was through her comments that "2/14 nights seems very little time for the child to spend with the other parent" that my wife gave in to the idea that there might in fact be some other model to the "every 2nd weekend".

We, my youngest and I, have our first extended weekend just ahead of us. .

I visitied my home recently when dropping off one of my boys. My belongings have been put aside and all evidence of our marriage has been removed. In a way it makes me feel homeless. I cannot consider the place where my family lives without me, home. Neither can I consider the rental where I currently live my home. I need to move on....

For our next meeting with the "lasten valvoja" she has requested that we prepare some evidence to show our income and expenses. This is where my wife was pleased to offer her that my salary is twice hers and that she will have high mortgage repayments should she wish to buy our home!! Is my only way out of this financial imbalance to buy even a bigger house having a higher mortgage? This seems crazy and totally impractical. If I understood correctly, the plan is to see how much I should pay my wife, assuming she has physical custody of the children, based not on their needs but on my income. What about my rights? I haven't started divorce procedures. I too would like to offer my children a second home. At this rate I will be doing well to keep afloat. I will have to pay mortagage on a home I do not live in, buy a place of my own and repay other personal loans I have. Does anyone have any knowledge on what expenses I should report going into the next meeting? How can I turn this imbalance in any way to my advantage?

- Pikeman

[Hämeen Hitain]

"If I understood correctly, the plan is to see how much I should pay my wife, assuming she has physical custody of the children, based not on their needs but on my income."

I have not divorced but from the experiences of my friends are that the children should have nearly the same standard of living they would have without the divorce.

If you have a "Mercedes Benz income" and your wife "Huyndai income" you will pay a big part of the difference,

[rinso]

If you have a "Mercedes Benz income" and your wife "Huyndai income" you will pay a big part of the difference,

It is "child support", not "ex support".
The income difference plays only a minor role. And the future plans of the ex are not relevant for the financial arrangement.
If and how much you have to pay above the minimum is something your lawyer should help you with.

she will have high mortgage repayments should she wish to buy our home

That is her choice, based on her financial situation. She could also move to a rented apartment.
No need for you to accommodate for all her wishes.

[Tiwaz]

I visitied my home recently when dropping off one of my boys. My belongings have been put aside and all evidence of our marriage has been removed. In a way it makes me feel homeless. I cannot consider the place where my family lives without me, home. Neither can I consider the rental where I currently live my home. I need to move on....

Yes. That "home" is done for. No point pining for the past. Get your stuff, haul them off to someplace and start thinking on how you want to live in future.

For our next meeting with the "lasten valvoja" she has requested that we prepare some evidence to show our income and expenses. This is where my wife was pleased to offer her that my salary is twice hers and that she will have high mortgage repayments should she wish to buy our home!! Is my only way out of this financial imbalance to buy even a bigger house having a higher mortgage?

As said, her wish to buy your home is irrelevant pretty much in regards to your payments. What are relevant issues are who has his/her name in ownership papers of the house. If it is mutually owned and/or uncovered by prenuptial... Then it is your shared property. Divorce has all property which is not ruled out by prenuptial up for split. If she takes the house, then you have to receive equal compensation in some other form.

I haven't started divorce procedures.

Why should this be relevant to anything? Do not fall to idea that someone who starts the procedures is somehow "evil" or "wrong".
In Finland, we do not look for "guilty party" in regards to divorce. Starting to go that way is to go to diablogun way and see divorce as form of warfare. It is not what you want in long term.

I too would like to offer my children a second home. At this rate I will be doing well to keep afloat. I will have to pay mortagage on a home I do not live in, buy a place of my own and repay other personal loans I have.

That is the bad part of marriage. You are stuck with the mortgage payments as that house is going to be weighing on you until the divorce is dealt with. Until divorce is final, you are co-owner of that house and have your own mortgage to cover.

Are you paying all of the mortgage or your half right now? If money comes from your account, but your wife refuses to provide her half of the payment you could suggest that she starts to do the payments and you transfer your half to her.

Or you could go to bank and try to get few months without payments/reduced payments. This might be best solution as it would reduce your financial strain but would not provoke the divorce to take nastier turn.

[diablogun]

In Finland, we do not look for "guilty party" in regards to divorce. Starting to go that way is to go to diablogun way and see divorce as form of warfare. It is not what you want in long term.

No, to go into a court room, you had better go there with someone who will fight for everything that belongs to you legally. That conflict is a battle that you must prosecute to support yourself in relation to the disintigrating marriage. She is now your enemy, and is fighting to ensure that your position is reduced vis a vis her own--such as by claiming you earn double, etc.

This is an internet forum, but Pikeman must absolutely prosecute his position to the fullest. It has nothing to do with anything but his prospects in the arrangement that is forthcoming, and will only be damaged by advice that says he must be nice for his kids sake. In truth, he must be as vicious as legally possible to enhance his position with his children.

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

No, to go into a court room, you had better go there with someone who will fight for everything that belongs to you legally. That conflict is a battle that you must prosecute to support yourself in relation to the disintigrating marriage. She is now your enemy, and is fighting to ensure that your position is reduced vis a vis her own--such as by claiming you earn double, etc.

This is an internet forum, but Pikeman must absolutely prosecute his position to the fullest. It has nothing to do with anything but his prospects in the arrangement that is forthcoming, and will only be damaged by advice that says he must be nice for his kids sake. In truth, he must be as vicious as legally possible to enhance his position with his children.

Hiring a lawyer does not mean that the case will go to court, if it goes that far, both parties have already lost to a certain degree (money, time and effort, stress,...). There are laws outlining the arrangement possibilities and formulas for calculating child-support amounts but certain things are open for interpretation. If relying only on the officials, which are prone to take the mother's side, chances are that the proposed deal is biased. It is for the benefit of the client to understand what the law dictates for custodial arrangements and the lawyer is there to explain all that and to ensure that the final agreement is fair. So it's not about fighting in the court and winner takes all, there are legal boundaries that must be adhered to. All this refers to child custody and support. From a legal standpoint divorce is much more clear cut, if the parties cannot decide upon the division of assets by themselves, the court will make a ruling according to the law (which is no different than what it would've been if the parties had been able to reasonably handle it on their own, with the exception of additional legal expenses for both parties) and that's it. The more business-like both affairs remain, the better. It is not some TV court room drama with smooth-talking lawyers battling it out, but real life according to the Finnish legal practices.

[Upphew]

It is not some TV court room drama with smooth-talking lawyers battling it out, but real life according to the Finnish legal practices.

And if it goes to court and both parties shout their war cries, the mum will win, especially if there are toddlers involved.