Which electricity in Helsinki for young people?

[macora]

Wind and solar energy is nice but while we dont have way to store it its really irrelevant. Regards "no wind, or sun and -30c"

I do live in area what was totally reformed for water electricity, would i choose power or how this area was.... Power. If i had change to use nuclear power instead of this change, nuclear.

We did have ways to store about 20 years ago. Regards winters that are 9 months, at least -10, and half an hour unhindered light tops per day in close to 3 months were doable 20 years ago. Not pitch black the entire other 23.5 hours, but honestly, that is a matter of size of storage, since production used to be very low there, too. The smaller application of the same technologies have developed quite a bit in the last years. Just saying things are possible when one is dedicated, not that this is the solution for any nation as a whole. The whole topic of transportation I do not even touch here. When Finland has a darkness problem, another part of the world has not, and vice versa. There were outright revolutions in the transport of energy in the last couple of years, in the laboratories. Always takes a while until new materials are mass-produceable, though.

I hear you completely about the water energy, though. What I am saying is not to switch off nuclear power as of today. But to invest resolutely in research in other solutions, and in thinking outside of the box. In resolutely pushing multinational solutions, apart of the usual climate conferences where way too many different agendas clash to actually find workable solutions. In resolutely finding the leaks where we "throw energy out of the window", quite literally sometimes. As long as a majority, and even a green party, thinks that the future is nuclear power, though, then that is what it is. As soon as a sufficiently large part of humanity, or nation thinks it is a high priority to find other solutions, other solutions will be found.

The mistakes I am speaking of are more like chains of mistakes, not one single big one. Here a little bit of underestimating, there an administrative structure that is suboptimal, there an idiot hired, etc. Even if a genius would design those structures, the genius would make mistakes. Now, how many geniuses did design administrative structures in Finland? I do not know. I have a guess about the number in Switzerland, and a couple other countries, though. Not encouraging It all builds up to serious dangers, just like anna.g mentioned she is disappointed in the Japanese gov. Rightly so. And thinking that will not happen again, or cannot happen anywhere, and I mean anywhere, is overestimating human being. Just my opinion, and therefore quite unimportant anyway.

[DMC]

Wind and solar energy is nice but while we dont have way to store it its really irrelevant. Regards "no wind, or sun and -30c"

Just to nitpick a little here, the temperature is pretty much irrelevant. I have solar water heating that augments my heating system in winter, producing about 7 000 kWh per year. The most productive time is mid January to mid April, even when temperatures are -30C. This is because the skies are often clear at that time of year, and it is clear skies rather than temperature that is important. Also my panels are mounted on a wall and much sunlight reflects off the snow-covered ground onto the panels. It is not unusual for production to be high on the coldest days, much higher than today for example, which is warm but with cloud cover.

[The flip side of this is that from October to December my panels are almost useless because it is dark and dismal with little direct sunshine even during the day.]

[onkko]

Wind and solar energy is nice but while we dont have way to store it its really irrelevant. Regards "no wind, or sun and -30c"

Just to nitpick a little here, the temperature is pretty much irrelevant. I have solar water heating that augments my heating system in winter, producing about 7 000 kWh per year. The most productive time is mid January to mid April, even when temperatures are -30C. This is because the skies are often clear at that time of year, and it is clear skies rather than temperature that is important. Also my panels are mounted on a wall and much sunlight reflects off the snow-covered ground onto the panels. It is not unusual for production to be high on the coldest days, much higher than today for example, which is warm but with cloud cover.

[The flip side of this is that from October to December my panels are almost useless because it is dark and dismal with little direct sunshine even during the day.]

http://www.moisio.fi/taivas/aurinkokale ... =2014&kk=5

And temperature is not irrelevant, -30c is when power is most needed. Of course you can supply your energy needs with solar but can you cut other power sources withouth freezing?

[DMC]

And temperature is not irrelevant, -30c is when power is most needed. Of course you can supply your energy needs with solar but can you cut other power sources withouth freezing?

When I said irrelevant I meant that temperature does not have a significant influence on the output of solar panels.
Can I cut other power sources without freezing? That rather depends on what you mean by cut. I can certainly cut down my use of other power sources but I cannot cut them out completely, and I wasn't suggesting that I could. Not with my current panels. If I added enough solar panels perhaps I could during the early months of the year, but not at the end of the year.

[Tiwaz]

but producing wind power costs and it is deemed green, so hippies will pay more for it -> higher prices.

Wind energy has almost ZERO production cost. It has an initial investment cost which might translate to financing expenses later on (paying up loans).

The main problem is that it fluctuates depending on weather conditions therefore, it's never enough alone (100%) and is used in combination with other sources in order to have a stable network (i.e. without the danger of a blackout).

It has huge production cost because all the money that goes into setting up and maintaining it cannot be gained from electricity it produces.
That is why that wind crap has tariff which guaranteese them certain amount of money per MWh, difference between market price and guaranteed price being paid by taxpayers.
Currently over 50% of income of windfarms comes directly from taxpayer pocket and not from market price of electricity they manage to produce.

[Tiwaz]

I have no doubt they know a lot these days. I have also no doubt there is a lot more they do NOT know. Just some random thoughts: When and where will meteors hit in the next say 400 years, that might destabilise earth crust? Which industries will the future generations want to use, and what kind of waste will those produce? Chemicals that attack the containers of our waste, deep digging producing vibrations in the storages of nowadays wastes, etc. etc. Gadzillion things can influence those deep-storages, as we call them in German, that the best scientists cannot predict nowadays.

Do you actually even think what the hell you are talking about? Meteorite strike which has enough force to "destabilize" Earth crust is so bloody massive that all worlds nuclear plants together are like bloody firecrackers compared to it.

Any disaster which could for example bring nuclear material to the surface from Onkalo after it has been sealed alone wreck much more destruction than contents of the hole.

[Tiwaz]

Wind and solar energy is nice but while we dont have way to store it its really irrelevant. Regards "no wind, or sun and -30c"

Just to nitpick a little here, the temperature is pretty much irrelevant. I have solar water heating that augments my heating system in winter, producing about 7 000 kWh per year. The most productive time is mid January to mid April, even when temperatures are -30C. This is because the skies are often clear at that time of year, and it is clear skies rather than temperature that is important. Also my panels are mounted on a wall and much sunlight reflects off the snow-covered ground onto the panels. It is not unusual for production to be high on the coldest days, much higher than today for example, which is warm but with cloud cover.

[The flip side of this is that from October to December my panels are almost useless because it is dark and dismal with little direct sunshine even during the day.]

Temperature is not irrelevant. It has definite effect on use of energy. Also, you are failing to look at TOTAL production from january period, because even if sky is clear Sun spends so little time above horizon and shines at so abysmal angle that energy gathered is insanely poor because sunlight is spread to larger area due to angle.

[Tiwaz]

We did have ways to store about 20 years ago. Regards winters that are 9 months, at least -10, and half an hour unhindered light tops per day in close to 3 months were doable 20 years ago.

!"#¤%.

Not pitch black the entire other 23.5 hours, but honestly, that is a matter of size of storage, since production used to be very low there, too.](quote]
No, it is twin problem of storage and production. Because if you are going to store energy, you must have OVERPRODUCTION to store. As simple example, if we presume that we have system which produces energy 12 hours from day and energy use is constant, we need to produce 24 hour worth energy in 12 hours PLUS all the losses from inefficiencies to have energy for whole day.

When Finland has a darkness problem, another part of the world has not, and vice versa. There were outright revolutions in the transport of energy in the last couple of years, in the laboratories. Always takes a while until new materials are mass-produceable, though.

In the laboratories, graphene is great stuff. Real miracle thing. But it has zero use outside laboratory because requirements for producing it in industrial scale do not exist.
Also there is point of blackmail. Look at Russia. They are not shy of blackmailing others with energy. So if we have to rely on someone in souther Africa to produce our energy because we cannot, we are basically begging to be abused by every goddamn tinpot between here and production location.

Anything you cannot control but rely on is something that can be used against you.

[DMC]

Temperature is not irrelevant. It has definite effect on use of energy.

As explained, I refer to production of energy not the use of energy.

Also, you are failing to look at TOTAL production from january period

Not at all, I have the production figures from running my solar panels for the past 8 years. Yes, daylight hours are short during that period, but total production is nevertheless higher than at any other time of year.

[onkko]

Not at all, I have the production figures from running my solar panels for the past 8 years. Yes, daylight hours are short during that period, but total production is nevertheless higher than at any other time of year.

Question is if its enough?

[DMC]

It is not enough to replace other energy sources all year round. It can make a contribution though. As I said, I get about 7 000 kWh per year from my system, which I regard as a useful/significant amount. To get more I could add more panels, but I could never practically add enough panels to heat my house all through the heating season.

All of which is getting away from the point I was making, that temperature does not significantly affect the output from my solar panels.

[onkko]

All of which is getting away from the point I was making, that temperature does not significantly affect the output from my solar panels.

And my point isnt about how much you get from solar, its how much you need and how much solar can give of it. And when its -30 you do need !"#¤% of energy. And when its -30 its probably dark and there is no wind.
Regards i live in north. And no i dont want to freeze my ass because some hippies wants to go green.

[AldenG]

Well here is a really timely article on solar:

Solar cheaper than utility grid in half of US states by 2015

Prices in the US have dropped 75% in 4 years and are continuing on that path.

You've got a Texas utility CEO moving to become a solar technology supplier and partner because once a customer goes completely off-grid, they'll probably never come back -- they're a lost customer forever. So you'd have utilities losing residential customers in droves and the utilities would have to make up the revenue on industrial users. You've already got large businesses in California and the Southwest turning to rooftop arrays for 100% power in some large commercial buildings.

[AldenG]

Finland is different, obviously -- it has different sunlight patterns but it's also faster to adopt new technology than the US, is often willing to invest more for state-of-the-art, and often knows more about SOTA.

Price and availability of power for Finns can easily be influenced by trends like this playing out farther south.

[onkko]

Well here is a really timely article on solar:

Solar cheaper than utility grid in half of US states by 2015

Prices in the US have dropped 75% in 4 years and are continuing on that path.

You've got a Texas utility CEO moving to become a solar technology supplier and partner because once a customer goes completely off-grid, they'll probably never come back -- they're a lost customer forever. So you'd have utilities losing residential customers in droves and the utilities would have to make up the revenue on industrial users. You've already got large businesses in California and the Southwest turning to rooftop arrays for 100% power in some large commercial buildings.

Cleantecnica.... lets talk about credible sources.
And now come back to finland from texas. You know difference.
You know like winter and endless night?