Is Finland a 1984 Police state, or is there freedom?

[harryc]

why anyone can't buy those stats - and make their own list and then copyright it


Sure, but luckily for Helsinki University people want to have the dates of names day on the "correct", official, Helsinki University list, not different ones on the competing one by company XY.

But the HU list has become the official UNofficial list by tradition - theoretically someone looking for publicity and a space to sell ads could buy the stats and make their own list and site which has been created on a DIFFERENT date than what HU has used for the stat processing - and thus also 'copyriight-able.' The names and corresponding dates would be just as valid and useful as that of HU - and only 'date' dependent. (Of course with a totally new name - not associatable with names already designated a date, there would be possible 'controversy' as to WHO sets the date )

I think it has only been because of respect of some kind for HU as nn academic, non-profit institution that they have been left alonne with their 'rights.'

[niceguy40]

I highly doubt that Finland has more freedom than the United States. Hell, I'm almost sure that the U.S. has considerably more freedom than Finland.

I dought that, the US has the highest incarceration rate on the planet. They're the worst.

[Beep_Boop]

I dought that, the US has the highest incarceration rate on the planet. They're the worst.

Wow.
We have a phrasal euphemism in Syria for someone who has lost it; "All of his fuses were fried". Yup, all of your fuses are fried.

Incarceration rate, in itself, is not a metric for personal freedoms. It's extremely idiotic to use it as such.

[harryc]

"
"It's extremely idiotic to use it as such.""

NOT IF YOU'RE BLACK! Don't be so fast with calling people idiots!

25% of the WORLD'S prison population is in the US! And 44% of those (in 2009 - now undoubtedly higher) are Black/Hispanic.

If it's any consolation to you - the US is followed up by China - another paradise for freedom.

[Beep_Boop]

We all know the stats. We all know how to Google. We all know how to use Wikipedia.

There re two different issues that you two seem to be mixing.
Are the numbers high? Yes! Is it bad? Yes! Is it an indication of a problem in the U.S.? Yes yes yes!!
However, is the incarceration rate a good metric for the state of personal freedoms? No it's not! It's a factor, but far from being a good metric.

The guy used it as a counter-argument to my point about persona freedoms, which is indeed idiotic.

Okay. So, where would it be appropriate to use? You can use it as a metric for the state of the justice system, the education problem, the feasibility of the war on drugs, the state of the prisons themselves, etc. etc.

[harryc]

So please do tell us more 'about the 'personal freedom' of blacks and hispanics in the US?

To get shot by police?

To get beaten by police?

To be suspected of whatever even if you're a member of Mensa and gave money to Mother Theresa?

etc etc etc

Remember: when you point the finger of idiocy at someone, there are FOUR fingers pointing BACK AT YOU - I suggest you cease your name calling

[Beep_Boop]

You are again mixing cards here. You're confusing racism issues with issues of personal freedoms as mandated by the law. You're unable to separate the faliurs of the justice system from a discussion strictly about freedoms (free market, gun legistlation, the power of money in politics, marriage equality, etc.)
You seem to think that this discussion is about how bad it is in the U.S. and think that I'm trying to say it's a utopia.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no way to carry a sensible discussion like that.

[harryc]

"mandated by the law"

Meaningless if not evident in the society - ENFORCED, applied by 'grand juries, etc.!

The EQUALITY of freedom is just as important if not MORE important.

You are saying that a country can be racist and free - that is surely not a correct evaluation. A country is only 'free' if the freedom is NON-discriminatory as per race, religion, economic status, educational achievements, national origin - etc.

You can't put 'freedom' in different boxes for different people.

+++

And just for the record --

You gotta be kidding

free market - Corporate America

gun legistlation - freedom to get a gun and mass murder

the power of money in politics - Koch brothers, Donald Trump

marriage equality - yeah, that's been a real 'walk in the park'

[AldenG]

Of course you have some good points, Harry, on a scale of absolute justice, and of American self-glorifying jingoist rhetoric vs the reality.

But have you tried weighing these concerns in the context of a nation like Syria? Or North Korea? Or China? Or most Central or South American states. Or pretty much anywhere except North America and Europe? Do you see how it looks insular to some to rail about the lack of freedoms in the US?

Now of all those black men imprisoned in the US you mentioned, aren't something like 90% of them there for non-violent drug offenses? Finland has LESS freedom than the US (or Canada) when it comes to drugs, both licit and illicit. And of course guns. But at least it will just as happily put a white man in jail as a black man, and a woman as a man (well, almost anyway).

[harryc]

"Or pretty much anywhere except North America and Europe?"

The only sensible frame of reference IS North America, Europe, Australasia and Japan. The definition of 'justice' is so far off in the rest of the world that it's really pointless to even come near to a coherent discussion.

"Finland has LESS freedom than the US (or Canada) when it comes to drugs, both licit and illicit. And of course guns."

Should we start to think that we should promote - in the name of freedom - the taking of drugs (not referring here to ethical drugs)? Or that Finland has legislation and a culture that doesn't promote pistol-packing mamas and pick-up trucks with gun racks is a travesty against the concept of freedom? I really hope you would not be serious.

"Now of all those black men imprisoned in the US you mentioned, aren't something like 90% of them there for non-violent drug offenses?"

Even MORE confirmation of the lack of freedom because of racism. Any sensible freedom-loving country would find ways of rehabilitation, training, etc. - rather than tossing into prison!

BTW - I am a former 'born and educated in the US' American.

[niceguy40]

You've never lived in Canada or the US so you don't understand the situation here. Canada isn't as bad as the US. But it's getting worse.

[AldenG]

You've never lived in Canada or the US so you don't understand the situation here. Canada isn't as bad as the US. But it's getting worse.

So is Finland.

[harryc]

You've never lived in Canada or the US so you don't understand the situation here. Canada isn't as bad as the US. But it's getting worse.

1 - Who's the 'You?'

2 - Where's the 'here?'

3 - What's getting 'worse?'

[Beep_Boop]

There is one issue that harryc is unable to get past, and it has become the biggest obstacle in this discussion. He's unable to separate the moral judgement about an aspect of freedom vis-à-vis the mere logical argument of its existence in the United States. He seems to think
"U.S. has more freedom when it comes to gun ownership" = "I LOVE that you can get guns and shoot everyone!!"

While the first statement is indeed true, the second statement is a lot easier to attack. We're naturally drawn to creating scenarios in our heads that are easy. Easy to understand, easy to deal with. Which is precisely why this discussion is going nowhere. The parties involved are not on the same page.
To have an adult, serious discussion about these matters, one should be able to separate the emotional aspect from the logical/pragmatic one.

The U.S. has, undeniably, more freedoms when it comes gun ownership, some drug use, alcohol consumption, free market, corporation power, and dozens of other issues.
Does that mean I/we think all of the aspects of these issues are positive and good? No, of course not. It just means what it exactly says.
Meta arguments about these issues (racial tension, dangers of guns, corruption in politics, etc.) are all irrelevant.. for the simple reason that nobody has said those things are great! Nobody has said that the U.S. is the best! None of that!

Until one is able to understand the subtle differences and nuances in arguments, it's extremely difficult to have a focused discussion. This one, and many others on the internet and f2f.

[harryc]

What's most important is to make some value-oriented deciision about the word 'freedom' itself!

One is 'free' in most of the US to blow off a person's head if they are on your property

One is 'free' in India and many other countries to commit rape (from the practical standpoint of not usually having to be worried about prosecution)

If the term 'free' is used as a positive matter in these cases then one is going to have a totally nonsensical discussion - if one can even call it a discussion.