hey people

[Rosamunda]

As for the refugees, our government is having a bidding war with the opposition right now, who can import more of them to Canada, so it isn't rosie here either. At least in Finland I could be in the luxurious position of moving away from larger urban areas, where these tend to gravitate to.

Troll? Who's trolling? If I had understood your motivations for coming here I wouldn't have bothered to post (twice) in this thread.

By the way, the asylum application success rate in Sweden is around 30-35% whereas in Finland it is nearer to 45%. Applications are, apparently, processed faster in Finland too. Many refugees and asylum seekers currently in Sweden are hoping to come to Finland. Finland really needs a young workforce as the demographics here are hopeless - a large postwar baby boom about to retire and not enough people working to contribute towards their pensions. http://yle.fi/uutiset/yle_in_stockholm_ ... nd/8301671

Whatever your motivations... when you get here you will be an immigrant (like most of us on here) and you will be learning Finnish same as everyone else. In my experience, foreigners with poor English skills tend to learn Finnish quicker than those of us who can communicate in English. You won't get preferential treatment (the 'Commonwealth' doesn't have any special status outside the UK). You won't go to the front of the queue in the jobs market either.

[levyraccoon]

swell

Moderators, Please Lock this thread.

[Kössi K]

Ööö.. what would be the reason for locking this thread, though? Lots of valuable and valid information here, with direct links, posted here by many of us, and it's not that much different to other threads here.
This thread is not a special snowflake, either.

[interleukin]

swell

Moderators, Please Lock this thread.

Nope, sorry, having too much fun here.

[AldenG]

swell

Moderators, Please Lock this thread.

LOL. That WAS a moderator, though posting as an individual.

Threads don't get locked in here just because the pukka sahib starts taking it on the chin.

But arrange your upcoming visit so that you can drop in on the next monthly meetup / pub-quiz and neutralize some of these doubtless unfounded first impressions. You kinda have to be able to get along with your own underclass (foreigners in Finland) before you can hope to get anywhere with integrating into the mainstream culture.

This is not like moving from BC or Ontario to Quebec. Statistically it's a very good bet that 10 years from this day the Finnish you've managed to acquire in the interim will still be pretty much useless.

Maybe you were anticipating something more like Bermuda.

[Rip]

Just two short comments:

Finland really needs a young workforce as the demographics here are hopeless - a large postwar baby boom about to retire and not enough people working to contribute towards their pensions.

The baby boomers did retire; the shortage of workers predicted for decades never materialized.

Reading news from Beeb fairly often, the archetypal "Asian" in UK seems to be guy from Pakistan (or somebody whose parents came from there). Here I would say if you talk about "Aasia", nine out of ten think about nations by the West Pacific Rim.

[Rosamunda]

Just two short comments:

Finland really needs a young workforce as the demographics here are hopeless - a large postwar baby boom about to retire and not enough people working to contribute towards their pensions.

The baby boomers did retire; the shortage of workers predicted for decades never materialized.

Yes, the peak birth rate was in 1947 but when I look at the various places where I work (OK mostly education) there are a huge number of 50 somethings compared to younger people. The age pyramid in the working population is definitely top heavy. Maybe it's because so many young professionals have gone abroad to work. http://www.stat.fi/tup/suomi90/joulukuu_en.html And the fertility rates have been really low for decades.

[Oho]

Kossi K (sorry, my keyboard doesn't have your characters) and Oho, it takes quite a bit more than your posts to keep a Canuck at bay.
I will definitely casing out the joint comes end of September. Hotels are booked

Well believe it or not, I do think you are like Guy Falkes, not that you are intending to blow up the Finnish parliament, which is a pity, but that your intentions are honest as you seem to have most if not everything going for you in Canada. Finns are nothing but the passengers on deck chairs as the Titanic that is Finland is headed full steam toward an all but inevitable iceberg that is financial meltdown thus moving to Finland if you have a reasonable livelihood is a bad idea. More tot he point the Nordic welfare states save perhaps Norway are dead even if not pronounced as such quite yet as the social capital is wearing too thin and the middle class is no longer all that willing to finance it. Finland regrettably is well on its way to becoming a police state.

To be on the safe side, like I said I have no reasons to doubt your intentions, but I am afraid Finland is about to go through societal transformation which will make it all but unrecognizable in couple of decades.

[Oho]

Finland really needs a young workforce as the demographics here are hopeless - a large postwar baby boom about to retire and not enough people working to contribute towards their pensions.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but even the baby boomers can only retire once, and with the average retirement age hovering at around 62 or something like that, the the last annual cohort of baby boomers (1950) went past that mark some 3 years ago. If it was not for the baby boomers retiring unemployment would have soared years ago. Now its hovering well into double digits with about 25% for youngsters and universities churning out PhD's straight into job center queues and onto unemployment benefits. Right now Finland needs generic young immigrants to fill the non existent work force shortage about as much is I need a new hole in my head. Giving CPR to struggling UAS faculties with heavy foreign recruitment, well it maybe smart for the particular UAS but not for the sorry @#$% that need to finance it.

[Rosamunda]

OK, so how are you going to convince all the diplomi insinööri to take up jobs caring for the - now retired - baby boomers who are too sick, drunk, poor, obese, etc to take care of themselves? How will you persuade MBA grads to work in the nation's päiväkoti wiping noses and zipping up Reima-clad toddlers before they go out to play in the rain and the mud. Who's going to drive the buses, clean the roads/offices/schools...? Who do you honestly think is going to work for a minimum wage on Sundays in shopping malls, restaurants, buses...? Do you know why you can now buy Finnish tomatoes cheaper than the imported ones?

I know many Finns who would rather stay at home on benefits than do any of those jobs. The workforce shortage is no illusion. The reluctance of many Finns to work in menial jobs for low salaries is no illusion either.

There are different ways of fixing the economy. Cutting benefits is one (strike anybody?)... Immigration is probably another. The NHS in the UK is totally dependent on an immigrant workforce. There is a chronic shortage of teachers in the UK except in one subject area... foreign languages.

[Oho]

OK, so how are you going to convince all the diplomi insinööri to take up jobs caring for the - now retired - baby boomers who are too sick, drunk, poor, obese, etc to take care of themselves?

Yes you really do have the Finns in nice tidy package, well you are true to your form. Besides how would I know what educated people are prepared or willing to do, dodged that bullet about thirty years ago.

Funny how just a day or so ago baby boomers were just about to retire and now all of a sudden they are for the most part apparently for reasons of their own making effectively incapacitated, you really do have a massive chip on your shoulder don't you. In real life most baby boomers are in their full faculties and lead pretty active lives for the next 10 to 20 years to come. Solving the issues of their coming ward with massive immigration and creation of upstairs downstairs society right here and now really does not tickle my fancy. Anyway, with the economy going as it is, there is not going to be that many jobs in elderly care as there is no tax revenue to pay the wages for them, all the money is going into educating African engineers because they are superior to Finns in every way, right, and people with means or assets to pay for such services from their own pocket are relatively few.

Incidentally I do have a faint recollection of buses running just fine in the 70's and eighties and why do you think a Asian engineer educated in Finland would be more eager to take a job in elderly care than his or her Finnish counter part. Beside I think you are lying, I doubt you know many Finns in any meaningful sense.

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

I know many Finns who would rather stay at home on benefits than do any of those jobs. The workforce shortage is no illusion. The reluctance of many Finns to work in menial jobs for low salaries is no illusion either.

There are different ways of fixing the economy. Cutting benefits is one (strike anybody?)... Immigration is probably another. The NHS in the UK is totally dependent on an immigrant workforce. There is a chronic shortage of teachers in the UK except in one subject area... foreign languages.

First of all, there's many kinds of immigration, with great differences in what their effect to the economy. Are you referring to something in particular or just all and every kind of immigration?

It is true, currently for some people money-wise it makes little difference whether they take a job - especially a part-time or a fixed-term one - or not. However, given that the situation is such, how does it help the economy if people from abroad move to Finland to work in the public sector? There would be less jobs for those already living here and wanting the same jobs, and still there would be those who would rather stay home on benefits. In addition, most non-work-based immigrants will be a burden on the social security system for quite some time and they too are subject to the same social security policies. Businesses naturally advocate immigration, as it is a way to get workers accepting lower salaries than what locals would require. The changes need to be made in the social security system to further encourage taking a job (not listing any means here), and also there needs to be even stricter governance on all workers (local and foreign) being treated according to the local laws and policies (salaries etc.).

[Rosamunda]

@Oho I didn't mention anything about educating foreign students. That's your take on the situation. As far as the refugee situation is concerned, many who get as far north as Finland and Scandinavia are well-educated. The others are stuck in Turkey.

But since you ask,
- educating foreigners provides jobs for well-educated Finns. There are very few foreigners working as teachers in the UAS, the vast majority are Finns, including engineers who have turned to teaching after a career in - now off-shored - industry.

- educating foreigners provides expertise to emerging economies that have no resources or infra-structure for educating young people in a wide range of practical engineering and business skills from farming and agriculture to mechanical, construction and environmental engineering. Most return to their home countries because (a) they want to (b) they don't have a job here and therefore no RP (c) they realise the opportunities to become successful entrepreneurs is greater in their home country than here

- educating foreigners gives Finnish students an opportunity to understand other cultures - a skill which is essential if Finland ever hopes to export new technology, products and services abroad

- educating foreigners is one place Finland can excel over other countries (Holland and Denmark are both starting to offer courses in English but not on the same scale as Finland).

I might be wrong, but I don't think that offering study places to foreign students has ever been a government strategy for solving the demographics here. What's more, since the Universities Act was introduced a couple of years ago, the UAS are operating quasi-independently and have bottom-line responsibility to balance their books. Of course, they don't have to run entrance examinations abroad (some don't) but what would be the sense of running an international business degree programme with no international students enrolled Many of the big engineering programmes are backed by multinational companies (eg Kone, Sako at Mech. Eng. in HAMK) who need international graduates for their worldwide markets.

But, that is nothing to do with the chronic shortage of care workers in the public sector. It's nice to think that the current 60 somethings are super fit and healthy (or at least fitter and healthier than 60 somethings ten or twenty years ago) - but even if that is the case, the real problems are only a decade away. Those people will eventually need help and in Finland most families expect the State to provide care. I guess things may be different outside the capital region - but personally I don't know many families with live-in grandparents. (And that's no criticism of the Finns, since the situation is very much the same in the rest of western Europe).

So solving that with immigration doesn't tickle your fancy.... but what does? How do you propose to solve these issues? How do you suggest we fill the hundreds of open vacancies in the daycares, mental health hospitals and clinics, care homes for seniors etc. ?



(PS I didn't get the bit about me having a chip on my shoulder. Care to elaborate?)

[Oho]

I might be wrong, but I don't think that offering study places to foreign students has ever been a government strategy for solving the demographics here.

You are wrong, the reason most typically cited for recruiting foreign students is the need for highly skilled labor in the future (yeah right, I mean they are attending university in Finland which pretty much preempts that). For schools foreign students are means to keep struggling faculties afloat, secure more public budget money which is more for foreign students and to somewhat artificially boost schools rating against some set of in reality surrogate criteria.

Just yesterday MTV3 ran cry me a river story of Finnish educated foreigners moving out of the country and what great loss it is. Funny that, when in reality vast majority of supposedly 'well educated' people moving out of the country are born and bread in Finland, them leaving these shores for good apparently is no problem. Finland is 'exporting' educated and 'importing' less educated people and seemingly with firm intent, brilliant policy. I live in a country where the state for all intents and purposes think the native, if you will, unless Swedish speaking population is inferior in pretty much every conceivable way, a nice feeling that.

Incidentally what do you know about the the level of education of the asylum seekers? Given especially as they do not come from Syria, but rather from Iraq, Somalia and Afganistan.

[Beep_Boop]

Given especially as they do not come from Syria, but rather from Iraq, Somalia and Afganistan.

I don't wanna be part of this discussion, but I just wanted to provide a source for this statement. Indeed, a very small number of asylum seekers coming to Finland are from Syria.