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Learn and discuss the Finnish language with Finn's and foreigners alike
sammy
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Post by sammy » Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:49 pm

sinikala wrote:Surely "campaign manager" is the correct term?

Just a generalisation... in my limited experience, it is a rare case when the Finnish version of a text, any text, will be shorter than the English.
You're probably right there - didn't even come to think of that shorter form, one of the trappings of not being a native speaker of English :D And yes, I'd also say that English texts (in general) are slightly shorter than their Finnish translations. But of course it depends on various factors.

I was just reading (and comparing) the Finnish version and the original of Tennyson's "Lotos Eaters" -translated by Yrjö Jylhä if I remember correctly- and was thinking that that kind of texts must be really difficult to deal with! I mean, whatever you do, you're bound to miss some nuances of the original text.

I didn't count the letters, though - so I don't know which one was longer :wink:

Edit: I couldn't leave it alone, of course :wink: this is rather interesting actually:

An excerpt from the original text by Tennyson...

They sat them down upon the yellow sand,
Between the sun and moon upon the shore;
And sweet it was to dream of Fatherland,
Of child, and wife, and slave; but evermore
Most weary seem’d the sea, weary the oar,
Weary the wandering fields of barren foam.
Then some one said, “We will return no more;”
And all at once they sang, “Our island home
Is far beyond the wave; we will no longer roam.”


The Finnish version by Yrjö Jylhä:

He keltahietikolle istuutuivat,
ja heitä saartoi aurinko ja kuu.
Maa isäin väikkyi - kun he uneksuivat -
ja vaimo, lapset, orjat, kaikki muu,
mut raskaalt' yhä tuntui airopuu
ja vaahtokentät murheen syövereiltä.
"Pois emme palaa", virkkoi vieno suu;
muut lauloivat; "Jäi kotisaari meiltä
taa merten, levähtää jo saamme harhateiltä."


In print the Finnish is shorter (that is, single lines), but if you read them aloud, the metre makes them more or less equal in perceived length.

Hmm. Maybe poetry is a different thing altogether.



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enk
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Post by enk » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:10 am

Timbeh wrote:
Mark I. wrote:Finnish is synthetic language
I always thought that a synthetic language meant something like Quenya or Sindarin. :shock:
A synthetic language, in linguistic typology, is a language with a high morpheme-per-word ratio.
From our never-to-be-trusted-according-to-this-board friend, Wikipedia;)

-enk

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sinikala
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Post by sinikala » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:41 am

sammy wrote:Hmm. Maybe poetry is a different thing altogether.
I think you are right about poetry being quite different... if you (I) would now translate (badly) the first two lines of the Finnish version back to English ...

He keltahietikolle istuutuivat,
ja heitä saartoi aurinko ja kuu.


They sat down on yellow sand(s),
Sun and moon surrounding them


quite different from the original

They sat them down upon the yellow sand,
Between the sun and moon upon the shore


With what I know about poetry you would struggle to cover the back of a rather small postage stamp, but it seems to me that the translation loses some of the floral bits like "upon" and the second line loses "shore" which makes the Finnish version a bit shorter.

If the Finnish version were to be as floral as the English version, perhaps it would bugger up the metre?

As an aside, my supervisor used to take the piss when I'd write "upon" ... "upon my soul" he'd say... seems like it worked, don't use it much nowadays.
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sammy
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Post by sammy » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:53 am

sinikala wrote:
sammy wrote:Hmm. Maybe poetry is a different thing altogether.
I think you are right about poetry being quite different... if you (I) would now translate (badly) the first two lines of the Finnish version back to English ...

He keltahietikolle istuutuivat,
ja heitä saartoi aurinko ja kuu.


They sat down on yellow sand(s),
Sun and moon surrounding them


quite different from the original

They sat them down upon the yellow sand,
Between the sun and moon upon the shore


With what I know about poetry you would struggle to cover the back of a rather small postage stamp, but it seems to me that the translation loses some of the floral bits like "upon" and the second line loses "shore" which makes the Finnish version a bit shorter.

If the Finnish version were to be as floral as the English version, perhaps it would bugger up the metre?
Indeed I think you're right there. If you translated the lines "litarally" they might be longer, as you said, it is most likely a question of -at least somehow- keeping to the metre. I guess one has to make certain allowances - the artist's liberty, eh? (as long as you still manage to conserve the basic idea somewhat intact)

On the other hand, if you'd translate like this

He istuivat alas keltaisen hiekan päälle
rannalle kuun ja auringon väliin


...it would sound like reading from a telephone directory :lol:

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:34 pm

Translate this :twisted:

- Eläimet vievät koko omaisuuteni. Lompakkoni on hukassa, autoni kateissa, bassoni kanissa ja verokarhu on vienyt palkkani. Ja jos näin jatkuu, niin minut hukka perii.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

sammy
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Post by sammy » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:56 pm

Hank W. wrote:Translate this :twisted:

- Eläimet vievät koko omaisuuteni. Lompakkoni on hukassa, autoni kateissa, bassoni kanissa ja verokarhu on vienyt palkkani. Ja jos näin jatkuu, niin minut hukka perii.
Puhu pukille, Hank - käännöstyö olisi hirveä... ja hermot palaisivat poroksi :lol:

Auugh... those double meanings just can't be translated... one would have to "inventive"

enk
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Post by enk » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:31 pm

Hank W. wrote:Translate this :twisted:

- Eläimet vievät koko omaisuuteni. Lompakkoni on hukassa, autoni kateissa, bassoni kanissa ja verokarhu on vienyt palkkani. Ja jos näin jatkuu, niin minut hukka perii.
En :lol:. Sukunimeni on tarpeeksi eläimellinen muutenkin. 8)

-enk

sammy
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Post by sammy » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:33 pm

enk wrote:
Hank W. wrote:Translate this :twisted:

- Eläimet vievät koko omaisuuteni. Lompakkoni on hukassa, autoni kateissa, bassoni kanissa ja verokarhu on vienyt palkkani. Ja jos näin jatkuu, niin minut hukka perii.
En :lol:.

-enk
Enk jänistää!

(I'll get me coat) :)

enk
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Post by enk » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:34 pm

sammy wrote:Enk jänistää!

(I'll get me coat) :)
Please do :lol: Tuo oli petollista! :D

-enk
Last edited by enk on Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:34 pm

Surisiko mäkäräinen kääntäessään :lol:
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

enk
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Post by enk » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:39 pm

Hank W. wrote:Surisiko mäkäräinen kääntäessään :lol:
Ei kyllä tullut susi tuossa 8) Olet aika hai suurepliikeissä!

-enk

sammy
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Post by sammy » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:41 pm

enk wrote:
sammy wrote:Enk jänistää!

(I'll get me coat) :)
Please do :lol: Tuo oli petollista! :D

-enk
Sus siunakkoon!

This is getting pretty tangential but so not, as Matti Nykänen would have sadi... just the other night we had tremendous fun with inventing a couple of new ones in this kind of wordplays... (courtesy of an ancient Pahkasika magazine)

Vauva alkoi tutista
Kapteeni alkoi hytistä
Malmsten alkoi Jorista
... etc.

How about this one: Helmut alkoi Lotista :lol:


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