Gob smacked..

[sinikala]

Speechless. And do the threads that blossom all over concern the stupidest idiots ever or the western seaside of the problem?

Que?!

[brindusa]

i meant turku.

[Hank W.]

they are dirty, primitive heathen of little intelligence, living in little tribes and have no education.

Well, you look at a Swedish or Russian geography book from the turn of the century, and what do they say of the Finns Then again Finns say the same thing about the Sámi. And in Norwegian and Swedish would a "Finne" in a text be a Finn, a Sami, or a Swede/Norwegian as the differentiation was with settled farmers vs. hunter-gatherers/slashburners/reineer herders... Always someone to feel superior to. City people vs. country yokels since... Mohenjo-Daro?

[sammy]

I think of my childhood children's books with painted pictures of clay huts with straw roofs, a open fire with a big pot, preferably some white guys cooking in it, and a couple of black "lakupekka" type characters (blackface... big red lips, big eyes) with a bone in the hair. Not really neutral, in my opionion.

Agreed, they're not really "neutral". And yes, some of those schoolbooks did indeed state rather uncivil and uneducated things about different kinds of people... see Hank's message as well

Let me play a devil's advocate here however. I'm exaggerating a bit in the following, but: what kind of pictures of Africans would have been neutral and suitable for children's books? Are we perhaps silently stating the opinion that we could have happily accepted those ones where slightly less dark-skinned people with slightly less curly hair would be wearing western-style clothes and living in 'tidy' and 'proper', modern apartment houses?

In other words, when we say that such pictures are a no-no, do we still secretly think that there's something inherently WRONG or despicable in living in a clay house with a straw roof, or having a 'black' skin etc...?

Or perhaps a better solution would have been not to have any pictures of Africans at all...? No caricatures of any sort... lest someone gets offended...

As you can see, it gets all paranoid and muddled up. Racism and prejudice are real issues, but they can not be solved merely by tackling trivialities. (Again I'm not saying that polite words and images would be 'insignificant' - just that the real solutions must lie somewhere deeper.)

[sammy]

perhaps it was just a word that they'd heard their Dad using to spout racist comments.

Or their Mom - now please don't be sexist!

If you refer back to my original post it was the Dad who was the one whom I had spoken to about the boys' comments.

Quite so, and if you refer back to my post I believe you'll notice that it was just an off-the-cuff joke, not a real accusation of sexism

[Hank W.]

i meant turku.

Why, the only city that has a TUT fraternity dedicated on sawing the city off and floating it to Åland...

[Hank W.]

Or perhaps a better solution would have been not to have any pictures of Africans at all...?

I've got a 3rd grade reader from the flower-hatted 1970's. Don't remember what "internationalism" they were pushing on us at then but the front cover (or the inside of the cover keeping the cover and the book together) has some african schoolkids marching barefoot on a lawn, seems to be in school uniform as all the boys have a blue shirt and white shorts, girls seem to be allowed colors but all the dresses are the same pattern... what strikes me is not only they're barefooted but the girl third in the row has her dress all tatters so her right side is all exposed. The back covering has some chinese kinderkarten kids having a morning excersize...

[odon]

i would say that calling of names happens both ways,.......

i went to school in africa, and there i was bullied, because i was white... they saw my chocolate coloured honey tasting skin, as a weak link to the colonials....so in 4 and 5 class, i remember going to the back yard of the school and fighting it out, ....after a few bouts of kicks and biting....they found out that this...guy...could kick and bite as them....but still i was called Makara...yes....like sausages are named in finland....meaning weakling of white origin....

then in india, where from i come, they call the tourists with different names....all refering to their white colour.....

and now here in finland ......they call the darker people names......the difference is now i can't call the guy to the backyard and have a duel, now i have to act the part, and be civilized .... hoo...for those days....when u could clobber a few heads and get hit......and nothing said .....this was part of growing up.....the hard way !!

[zeta]

Just had to share this tid-bit as I'm still trying to get my head around it..

I've *never* in the 10 years I've lived here felt any form of discrimination whatsoever.. I've got really fair skin and blue eyes so fit in with the norm.
My son, a Finnish/Canadian kid, has olive skin and brown eyes

As we were walking home from the local store this afternoon, I heard a young kid yell "moi nikkeri". I turned around thinking that some kid was being obstinate with someone behind us and wanted to give the kid a leer for the language he chose to use.

I was floored when my 8 year old said very calmly.. "It's OK Mom...that kid and his friends call me that all the time at school". He also said that this kid has called him "mustalainen".

I knew where the kid lived so went to talk with his parents a little later on my own. Just wanted the parents to know how their kid was addressing other people. After nicely explaining the purpose of my visit the father replied, "yah, so?" Tä??

Had to let this one fly on here. Have I been living in a bubble?

For other parents on here.. How would you deal with this? I'll speak with the school of course.

Racism is fear. And fearful racist people here in Finland feel they have a right to express themselves directly/indiscrete (you know, straight in the face).

[Hank W.]

people here in Finland feel they have a right to express themselves directly/indiscrete (you know, straight in the face).

You're too late - 90 years ago we last had to ask some foreigner what to do - these days Finns have a right to do whatever they please in their own country. I find being direct is good - you immediately know where you stand - if you want to be indirectly backstabbed you can go to any country where they do it discretely.

[toxibuny]

I was a bit gobsmacked once when out on a stag night, introducing myself to some guy with my crappy finnish, and getting 'ha ha ha - you may be foreign, but at least you're not a saatanen neekeri!' luckily I'd had a couple of beers so instead of a nervous laugh, I responded with a frown, a jokey fingerpoint and a 'ha ha ha - and you're some kind of racist f***wit'

reckon it is mainly because finnish folks are new to the whole immigration thing - in a lot of ways it's an 'innocent' kind of racism, at least compared to the stuff in england.

still way unpleasant though...

[Tiwaz]

I was a bit gobsmacked once when out on a stag night, introducing myself to some guy with my crappy finnish, and getting 'ha ha ha - you may be foreign, but at least you're not a saatanen neekeri!' luckily I'd had a couple of beers so instead of a nervous laugh, I responded with a frown, a jokey fingerpoint and a 'ha ha ha - and you're some kind of racist f***wit'

reckon it is mainly because finnish folks are new to the whole immigration thing - in a lot of ways it's an 'innocent' kind of racism, at least compared to the stuff in england.

still way unpleasant though...

There is also possibility that Finland has received much of the "worst" immigration has to offer.

First people to come around were refugees... Nothing bad in it, but these were people least likely to succesfully integrate into finnish world. They did not come because they wanted to be in Finland, but because they did not want to be in nation of origin.

Also, finnish culture being distinctively different has brought other problems. This is partially made worse by flowerhat attitudes.

I recall one incident I read about from long time ago. Flowerhat lady expressed her discern over how poor immigrant/refugee looked like when flanked by huge security guys dragging him out.

After being caught shoplifting...

Generally I would consider one of the best things that could be done to immigrants or refugees to be crash course of finnish culture, society and mentality. Because finns themselves are not going to be too forgiving if you try to apply foreign ones into finnish society.

[Hank W.]

First people to come around were refugees... Nothing bad in it, but these were people least likely to succesfully integrate into finnish world. They did not come because they wanted to be in Finland, but because they did not want to be in nation of origin.

Not exactly. The first refugees were Chileans and then the Vietnamese "boat people" which groups pretty well integrated into the mainstream. Of course - that was in the 1970's so everything was small scale and organized.

[incster]

There is also possibility that Finland has received much of the "worst" immigration has to offer.

The British guys whine a lot, but they are not THAT bad...

[odon]

There is also possibility that Finland has received much of the "worst" immigration has to offer.

The British guys whine a lot, but they are not THAT bad...

I am laughing on my side, on this point....