Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

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Rob A.
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Rob A. » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:11 pm

sammy wrote:
EP wrote:
siis olen olemassa....
Therefore – I exist...
Yep: the difference is much the same as in "I think, therefore I am" / "I think, therefore I exist". That is, not much difference in meaning at all :) Children often ask: onko lohikäärmeitä olemassa, onko enkeleitä olemassa, onko halpoja autoja olemassa...

Existence = olemassaolo. There's the 'finer' Finnish version of the word eksistenssi as well, but that's not an "everyday word"... usually only found in philosophy books etc.

Got it...thanks.... olla olemassa ...literally "to be being"... and the wiktionary example is interesting:

Rakkautta ei ole olemassa....Somehow, Rakkautta ei ole., just isn't enough...:) And I also see that the partitive can appear at the beginning of a sentence...I hadn't thought about that before....I suppose that has to do with the intransitive nature of the verb...Rahaa ei ole tarpeeksi....Right???...Grammatically speaking, of course...:)



Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

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Pursuivant
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Pursuivant » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:19 pm

rahaa ei ole tarpeeksi.. raha ei riitä..

opiskelijan budjetti:
- kaikki raha mikä tulee, se myös menee
- jos jotain jää jäljelle, ne loputkin juodaan
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

Rob A.
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Rob A. » Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:28 am

Pursuivant wrote:rahaa ei ole tarpeeksi.. raha ei riitä..

opiskelijan budjetti:
- kaikki raha mikä tulee, se myös menee
- jos jotain jää jäljelle, ne loputkin juodaan

Hmmm...so "love" is in the partitive, but "money" is in the nominative...Why, because it is more "tangible" than "love"???... :lol:

How about:

Suomessa, hellää ilmaa ei ole olemassa....:)

And speaking of "wasting money", I found this: 1000 ways to Waste Your Money


Here's how it starts:

"Americans occupy their existence doing four primary things--seeking more money, seeking to make themselves more sexually attractive, sleeping, and spending money."


...no wonder I'm bored... :lol:

Jukka Aho
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Jukka Aho » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:16 am

Rob A. wrote:
Pursuivant wrote:suomipoika sanoo "juokse järveen"
Ahhh...you've got it, Witchsmeller... And you can also say in English ..."Go jump a lake!!"

Hyppää järveen!
is probably the original form in Finnish, too... but these days it sounds a bit lame and tame, at least to my ears... a bit like some old-fashioned idiom you might have used in an earnest way in the 1950s, but not any longer, as it has simply started to sound silly.

Juokse järveen! sounds more aggressive (and, for that, more “modern”!) to my ears. It also has a bit of that ever-important alliteration in that both words start with the same sound...
znark

Jukka Aho
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Jukka Aho » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:30 am

Rob A. wrote:I'm also wondering about the expression, kello kaulassa...which translates as, "bell on neck"...or if you like, "clock on neck"... Why wouldn't you say, kello kaulalla
I don’t have a direct answer to that one, but it must have something to do with wearing or donning things in general. These are all valid expressions in Finnish:

housut jalassa
hanskat kädessä
kengät jalassa
lakki päässä
korvakorut korvissa
helmet kaulassa

That said, kello kaulalla is not wrong, either... using that form just emphasizes or draws particular attention to the fact that the bell is against or on (the skin of) your neck.
znark

Rob A.
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Rob A. » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:29 am

Jukka Aho wrote:
Rob A. wrote:I'm also wondering about the expression, kello kaulassa...which translates as, "bell on neck"...or if you like, "clock on neck"... Why wouldn't you say, kello kaulalla
I don’t have a direct answer to that one, but it must have something to do with wearing or donning things in general. These are all valid expressions in Finnish:

housut jalassa
hanskat kädessä
kengät jalassa
lakki päässä
korvakorut korvissa
helmet kaulassa

That said, kello kaulalla is not wrong, either... using that form just emphasizes or draws particular attention to the fact that the bell is against or on (the skin of) your neck.
Hei Jukka!!...:)

Now, lots of room for misunderstandings here... :lol:

housut jalassa...."Pants around legs"...There is an English expression..."Caught with your pants down"...meaning, "Caught in a compromising situation"...:)...Now what does the Finnish version mean??

hanskat kädessä...."I assume this is equivalent to "gloves on hands"...Not "gloves in hands"...which in English would imply holding onto a pair of gloves, not actually wearing them...

kengät jalassa...I guess it can't be anything other than "shoes on feet" in English...

lakki päässä....ditto..."cap on head"

korvakorut korvissa...you usually have a choice in English..."Earrings on, or (for pierced ears) in, ears."

helmet kaulassa...Hmmmm..."helmet on neck."???...Yeah, yeah, OK..."pearls around neck."...:) "Pearls in neck" doesn't sound very comfortable in English...


....and for the other post about, Hyppää järveen!....you wouldn't say this in English anymore either, unless you were half-joking...it's just too old-fashioned.... Nowadays...if you were serious and it didn't involve anyone you cared about, you would just use the obligatory and oh-so-imaginative "F-word"...:)

priki
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by priki » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:53 am

Rob A. wrote:Rahaa ei ole tarpeeksi....Right???...Grammatically speaking, of course...:)
Yes, exactly. :) Grammatically correct, and can be used in everyday speech, too. Rahaa ei ole koskaan tarpeeksi kaikkeen, mitä haluaisi.

priki
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by priki » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:57 am

Rob A. wrote:housut jalassa...."Pants around legs"...There is an English expression..."Caught with your pants down"...meaning, "Caught in a compromising situation"...:)...Now what does the Finnish version mean??
Finnish version is Yllätettiin housut kintuissa. "Caught with pants down around legs." Housut jalassa simply means wearing a pair of trousers.

sammy
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by sammy » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:20 am

Jukka Aho wrote:...valid expressions in Finnish:

housut jalassa
hanskat kädessä
kengät jalassa
lakki päässä
korvakorut korvissa
helmet kaulassa
Don't forget herne nenässä :ochesey:

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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Pursuivant » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:39 pm

tatti otsassa
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

Jukka Aho
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Jukka Aho » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:48 pm

Rob A. wrote:
Jukka Aho wrote:These are all valid expressions in Finnish:

housut jalassa
hanskat kädessä
kengät jalassa
lakki päässä
korvakorut korvissa
helmet kaulassa
kengät jalassa...I guess it can't be anything other than "shoes on feet" in English...
They all mean the same thing: you’re wearing the mentioned thing on a part of your body.

Also:

kravatti/solmio kaulassa
rusetti/solmuke kaulassa
kaulaliina/kaulahuivi kaulassa
kaulakoru/kaulaketju kaulassa
avain kaulassa
huivi päässä
silmälasit päässä
sormus sormessa
kello ranteessa
reppu selässä
kahle nilkassa
ranneketju/rannekoru/rannerengas ranteessa

They all defy logic the same way: inessive case (-ssa, -ssä) seems to suggest that the object is “in” a body part, while the actual meaning is just that you’re wearing it.

Despite using the inessive case in this seemingly illogical way, native speakers, of course, don’t really think in terms of literally wearing these things in their body parts; rather, it is just an idiomatic way of expressing the idea of wearing something on some body part in Finnish. Idioms often aren’t too logical, or the original logic behind them might have been lost in the mists of history.

To tell you the truth, expressions that use the inessive case in that particular way don’t really make too much logical or analytical sense even to the natives. Jalat kengissä, for instance, is a much more logical expression than kengät jalassa – which is actually a weird thing to say, come to think of it – but yet the latter is the idiomatic way of expressing the idea of wearing shoes in Finnish. But native speakers have the luxury of hardly ever needing to do this kind of conscious analysis of the common expressions in their own language since it all comes naturally to them and doesn’t need to be memorized or questioned any longer... not to mention explained in a logical way... until a non-native speaker points out a discrepancy and demands an explanation... :)

More examples of this aspect of the inessive case:

tatuointi selässä
naarmu autossa
lommo konepellissä
mustelma kädessä
lävistys(koru) huulessa
rengas nenässä
pisamia kasvoissa
znark

silk
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by silk » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:49 pm

Jukka, can I ask you to analyse something for me.

nukuin yhden tunnin I slept one hour
Both yksi and tunti are in the accusative case.

but

nukuin kaksi tuntia
nukuin kolme tuntia etc
The number is in the nominative case and the hour is in the partitive case. Why the three different cases? The only explanation I can come up with is "that's just the way it is".

Rob A.
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Rob A. » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:07 pm

priki wrote:
Rob A. wrote:housut jalassa...."Pants around legs"...There is an English expression..."Caught with your pants down"...meaning, "Caught in a compromising situation"...:)...Now what does the Finnish version mean??
Finnish version is Yllätettiin housut kintuissa. "Caught with pants down around legs." Housut jalassa simply means wearing a pair of trousers.
:lol: :lol: ...And this morning....now I have to lay out the scene a bit...:) I came into work about an hour late...my office is in/on a quiet part of the floor away from the main corridor against the windows... Several people are away on vacation....so it's even quieter than usual...one of the workspaces is being used temporarily by a contract person... (an Englishman....his nationality has nothing to do with the story, but I can't resist the "dig"... :evil:) ...anyway as I passed by the "contractor" I could see his computer screen and I caught a glimpse of what looked like a "fleshy" female image...for a split second, ....as he quickly changed the screen while giving me a kind of furtive half-glance....

Yllätettiin housut kintuissa.... :lol:

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Pursuivant
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Pursuivant » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:22 pm

yllätettiin rysän päältä
saatiin kiinni sormet hillossa
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

Rob A.
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Re: Finnish sayings etc what mean somethin different.

Post by Rob A. » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:35 pm

Jukka Aho wrote:...Despite using the inessive case in this seemingly illogical way, native speakers, of course, don’t really think in terms of literally wearing these things in their body parts; rather, it is just an idiomatic way of expressing the idea of wearing something on some body part in Finnish. Idioms often aren’t too logical, or the original logic behind them might have been lost in the mists of history.

To tell you the truth, expressions that use the inessive case in that particular way don’t really make too much logical or analytical sense even to the natives. Jalat kengissä, for instance, is a much more logical expression than kengät jalassa – which is actually a weird thing to say, come to think of it – but yet the latter is the idiomatic way of expressing the idea of wearing shoes in Finnish. But native speakers have the luxury of hardly ever needing to do this kind of conscious analysis of the common expressions in their own language since it all comes naturally to them and doesn’t need to be memorized or questioned any longer... not to mention explained in a logical way... until a non-native speaker points out a discrepancy and demands an explanation... :)
And would I be just such a demanding non-native speaker??... :evil: But, of course, feeling the need to "defend" the logic of Finnish to a personally rational speaker of, perhaps, the most irrational of the European languages seems a bit pointless...:)

Us (we--for the pedantic), native English speakers, learn early on to take irrationality in stride, and some of us even seem, somehow, to view this as a "linguisitic strength"...don't ask me how...:) Of course, once a lingusitic convention is established, consistency would then seem to be more important or significant... So far in my quest to learn Finnish I do see a lot of consistency and rationality...

Here's that famous example of English language rationality..mentioned in another post here recently ..."ghoti"...as in "tunaghoti sandwich"...:)

English, of course, "suffers" because for so long it was a peasant language...adding bits and pieces from other more sophisticated languages, such as French and Latin to an essentially rational Germanic substratum...(French, of course, is a "peasant" language compared to Latin...but that's another discussion) ...and speaking of Latin...now there is beauty and elegance.... Consider this...it ties in with some of the posts above..."Cogito ergo sum"...Three words...two verbs and a connective... Look what it takes in English..."I think therefore I am"....and Finnish, Ajattelen, siis olen (olemassa)...

Languages...lot's of fun...:)


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