a few questions about finnish words..=)

[benjamiinn]

here are a few more please

1.kallis - kalliiseen
why does it not change to kaltiseen?when kallis is weak,isnt it?

2.taivas - taivaaseen
why does it not change to taipaaseen?

[Rob A.]

here are a few more please

1.kallis - kalliiseen
why does it not change to kaltiseen?when kallis is weak,isnt it?

2.taivas - taivaaseen
why does it not change to taipaaseen?

Good question!!...

I tried to reason this through and just got more confused ...

I found this link but it won't give the answer...though it might help a bit....

http://users.jyu.fi/~pamakine/kieli/suo ... varen.html

I think it has to do with determining the word stem which can be a bit tricky....also words that end in "s" are special as well, but that by itself shouldn't affect the consonant gradation....

I found these to add to the confusion:

karvas ("bitter")... karvaan ...karvaaseen
varvas ("toe")...varpaan ...varpaaseen
kiuas ("sauna stove")...kiukaan...kiukaaseen
kirves ("axe")...kirveen...kirveeseen....

And then there are the two meanings of the verb, tavata, to consider:

...one meaning ("to meet") conjugates thus, tapaan, tapaat, tapaa... etc; the other ("to spell")....tavaan, tavaat, tavaa...etc.... I know with these last two the word stems are different and that causes these other changes.... I guess we don't want to discuss what word can arise if you misspell tapaan...either leaving an "a" out or adding a "p" at the wrong time....


I, too, would be intrigued to hear an explanation for your question...

[benjamiinn]

heh ok , thx for the answer =)

kiuas ("sauna stove")...kiukaan...kiukaaseen

this is really confusing too , where a k just appears out of the nothing :O

oh and is it correct to say that every word ending in -e will take that -eeseen ending?
huone-huoneeseen
kappale-kappaleeseen
perhe-perheeseen
etc..

[Upphew]

kiuas ("sauna stove")...kiukaan...kiukaaseen

this is really confusing too , where a k just appears out of the nothing :O

Nono, it doesn't come out of the nothing (according to such a reliable source as suomi24... but at least it seems plausible).
Kiuas started as kivikasa (pile of stones, yes it really was just that, no chimneys or anything) and with few shortenings ended up as kiuas:
kivikasa > kiv'kasa > kivkas > kiuas

[benjamiinn]

ok so I have to know where word comes from so that I know if it gets a "k" or, that a "k" disappears?
i guess I cannot just see it on the word as it nowadays is

[Upphew]

ok so I have to know where word comes from so that I know if it gets a "k" or, that a "k" disappears?
i guess I cannot just see it on the word as it nowadays is

No, you just have to remember to add that k

[benjamiinn]

ok

[Pursuivant]

karvas ("bitter")... karvaan ...karvaaseen
varvas ("toe")...varpaan ...varpaaseen
kiuas ("sauna stove")...kiukaan...kiukaaseen
kirves ("axe")...kirveen...kirveeseen....

[benjamiinn]

hey why does mies change to f.ex. miehiä?

i dont get where the h comes from :O

it says: mies (nom.) miehe-(stem) miehiä(part.)

but of what case or so is miehe the stem?

[kalmisto]

>> but of what case or so is miehe the stem? <<

Miehen tukka oli musta. ( The man´s hair was black )

http://www2.lingsoft.fi/cgi-bin/fintwol?word=miehen

Salama tappoi miehen. ( A flash of lightning killed a man. )

In that sentence ""miehen" is the ackusative of "mies". The genitive and ackusative of a Finnish noun look exactly the same.

Miehet eivät itke. ( Men do not cry. )
http://www2.lingsoft.fi/cgi-bin/fintwol?word=miehet

Lingsoft demos here :
http://www.lingsoft.fi/?doc_id=108&lang=fi

[Rob A.]

ok so I have to know where word comes from so that I know if it gets a "k" or, that a "k" disappears?
i guess I cannot just see it on the word as it nowadays is

No, you just have to remember to add that k

This might help a bit:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/cons-grad.html

...the most relevant part is near the bottom under the heading, "Direct vs. Inverse Gradation"

Here's an excerpt:

"So how can you know whether the base form has weak or strong grade, i.e. whether the k varies with kk or with absence of consonant? You might think that you need to know whether the gradation is direct or inverted. But dictionaries don’t tell that to you! For example, Nykysuomen sanakirja does not indicate the specific type of gradation at all, and Suomen kielen perussanakirja indicates it simply by a letter that identifies the type.

In practice, you can usually know the gradation type from the word itself. The word form aikoa has the k at the start of an open syllable, so it is in the strong grade; consequently, the k is lost in writing in the weak grade, e.g. aion (though the pronunciation may have a j sound, as mentioned above)."


He also has this to say about the terminal "e"...

"The only major problem is with words ending with e. However, for them, the inflection class information resolves the issue. You just need to know that for words with inflection like hame : hameen (as opposite to the less common type nalle : nallen), the base form is treated as ending with a consonant, so it has the weak grade; hence e.g. tiede : tieteen."


And as to your question ...(addressed to be benjamiin)...about the letter "h" in a following post, we had this discussion a few months ago:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=35794

...in short, "h" is a bit of a mysterious letter in Finnish....as it is in many other languages including English....in Finnish, the letter is still ...kind of ....there...you just can't see it... ...though in some dialects it remains visible....

A lot of these "difficulties" have rational explanations...native speakers tend to know intuitively about this, just as you and I tend to know a lot of things about English intuitively....the patterns were picked up gradually after years of expose to the language as our native tongue....

[Aside: I recently returned from a trip to Provence....... Intuitively, most English speakers will know ...more or less ....how to correctly pronounce "Provence"....because we "know" that "c" before "i" and "e" has the "s" sound, but otherwise, with exceptions, has a "k" sound....these "rules" were adopted from French and so the same applies with French words....

Now while reading an English guide book I encountered this word, "Provencal"... Hmmm....I "knew" that it couldn't possibly be pronounced with a "k" sound....and it wasn't long before I saw the French version, "Provençal"....French uses the cedilla to soften a "c" that would otherwise be hard...English doesn't do that....and so you just have to "know"... ....and with French or Latin words borrowed into German...the whole thing tends to be sidestepped.... "concept" becomes "konzept".... ]

[benjamiinn]

ok thanks , good information =))

,I started with the cases and consonant gradation some days ago, maybe I go too fast =)

Did you learn the singular cases before the plural ones?
Or can I do that at the same time?:P

Ill have to study the nomnative plural too , it needs so much consonant gradation :O
EDIT:
more questions :O.sorry is it ok if I post everything here?This feel like a thread that i will have all the time during my finnish studies xD

-ihminen is weak, isnt it? --- then into Gen.-ihmisen
so one site says that when a word is weak and there is a h, the h will become a hk
so one could think it would become ihkmisen xD

im just trying to get some CLEAR rules, im so confused

- and , nainen, is it strong or weak? then there is a consonant at the end it will be weak, right?

[Pursuivant]

- and , nainen, is it strong or weak?

if its a Finnish woman its definitely strong

[benjamiinn]

hahhaha

[Rob A.]

....
-ihminen is weak, isnt it? --- then into Gen.-ihmisen
so one site says that when a word is weak and there is a h, the h will become a hk
so one could think it would become ihkmisen xD

im just trying to get some CLEAR rules, im so confused

- and , nainen, is it strong or weak? then there is a consonant at the end it will be weak, right?

Whoa...pardner!!!... You've got to slow down a bit....not everything is subject to consonant gradation....

...but you do seem to be doing quite well....for me, language learning seems to come in "fits" and starts"....I make some headway, then rest for a while, then go at it again.... I guess it takes a bit of time for the brain to subconsciously organize and file the stuff away...

I would slowly and carefully go through these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_gradation

...this is a good start...essentially consonant gradation affects the letters, k, p and t...

Here's an excerpt which gives it all in a "nutshell"....

"In Finnish, gradation only affects the stop consonants [p t k] when they appear at the onset of the last syllable in a stem and when a suffix is added to a word that closes the syllable. "

So nainen isn't subject to consonant gradation...what you are talking about is simply the declension of the word for the different cases.... typically the case endings are added to the genitive stem... and nouns and adjectives with the nominative ending, -nen, drop the -nen, add -s-, and then the case ending....

And here's a second good link on consonant gradation...

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/cons-grad.html

...Korpela is quite good at explaining things


Hmmm...I wonder were Jukka is???...