Separate swimming times for women based on religion.

[onkko]

[umit]

I beg to differ from the post above that uses the example of a few non-local players requesting reservation at a playground. In fact, if a local, of either gender, were to go to these non-local players and ask to play along with, you can be sure the outcome would be pleasant! It is not about segregation at all, not about discrimination. I like one of the earlier posts here about a position for a lifeguard. What if the lifeguard is a male? Discriminate based on gender?

My own view is that this is more or less agreeing not to integrate and getting the support to create a parallel society, one at odds with each other. If it were a one-off situation, it would not be so uncomfortable. But where does it stop? From what is there in the newspapers (unless they are 100% false), it seemingly may not stop here. Situations in other countries are good examples.

My own opinion: Society defines itself, immigrants adapt. If the stance does not chance, then only those willing to adapt and integrate into society would move in here, the others would move on to other places. And yes, IMVHO, it is discriminatory to even allocate such times based on such factors. As I mentioned above (yeah, I am an immigrant), I expect my kid to grow as a Finn, as every other kid on the street. I personally do not even consider it fair that migrants ask the state to pay for teaching their culture, language etc. to their kids. Why? My question has always been: Why is your kid more important than others kids? If all kids cost the county 100 EUR for school per month, why do you deserve 120 per month? You wanna teach your kids about your culture, language etc? Pay for it out of your own pocket.

Likewise here, build your own swimming pools. Public swimming pools are built by taxes paid by all, no one has the right to demand special treatments.

Well, let me make some contribution to this thread from a muslim point of view...

First of all, I felt a misunderstanding among most of the commenters here, that the muslim immigrant women are asking for separate swimming times based on religions of the women. They don't want muslim-women-only swimming times. It's fine for them to swim together with Finnish, Swedish, German, American, Israeli, Chinese etc. women from various religions... IMO if an immigrant (I'm referring to muslim immigrant women) can swim together with Finnish women at special times, this is integration. If finnish women refuses to swim with the immigrants or the authorities allocate immigtant only swimming times, this is discrimination.

If you let the system as it is, i mean no special treatment for the immingtants, this is neither discrimination nor integration. But, then the Finns shouldn't complain that the immingrants are not integrating.

If I understood from the article correctly, in certain cities the immigrants demanded separate swimming hours for women, and it was accepted by the authorities. And then some locals complained about this and it was brought into attention of the Ombudsman... So, it is more like a demand-supply situation in a liberal economy. When you think about commercial point of view, allocating separate times doesn't bring any/much extra economic burden to pool management, but it will definetely increase the number of the customers, thus the income...

Some people made rather ridiculous comments here, that as a tax payer they don't want special treatment to immigrants with their money. You are missing the point that the immigrants are also part of the community and they are also producing a value for Finland and paying tax... It's fine when they pay tax, don't use some social benefits as you do; but, when they demand something that you won't use, woooooo!!!

Another ridiculous view is "if you don't like, leave" thing. Accept or not... Like or not but, you need immigrants more than they need you

As I mentioned above (yeah, I am an immigrant), I expect my kid to grow as a Finn, as every other kid on the street.

I wonder if you happened to be an immigrant in a muslim country, would you have your son circumcised as every other male kid on the street? Or, in some African countries would you let your daughter the be slashed by a stick as a part of adolescence ritual? Don't mix integration with assimilation...

Of course the immigrants should also make some sacrifices on their side, for sake of integration. Refusing to touch alcoholic beverage bottles, refusing to serve drunk people (ie taxi drivers), demanding permission for prayers five times a day (if given due to flexible working hours it's fine), etc are bullsh*t.

Last but not the least, I find the demand for separate swimming times for women as normal as you find ladies and gentlemen toilets normal... If this demand is accepted then it is fine, if it is refused by sensible reasons than it is fine, too... Nobody expects a swimming pool to be allocated to one person for 2 hours!

[onkko]

"First of all, I felt a misunderstanding among most of the commenters here, that the muslim immigrant women are asking for separate swimming times based on religions of the women. They don't want muslim-women-only swimming times. It's fine for them to swim together with Finnish, Swedish, German, American, Israeli, Chinese etc. women from various religions... IMO if an immigrant (I'm referring to muslim immigrant women) can swim together with Finnish women at special times, this is integration. If finnish women refuses to swim with the immigrants or the authorities allocate immigtant only swimming times, this is discrimination."

!"#¤%, there is already woman only swimming time but that wasnt enough.

[umit]

!"#¤%, there is already woman only swimming time but that wasnt enough.

Then this falls into bullsh*t category

See:

Of course the immigrants should also make some sacrifices on their side, for sake of integration. Refusing to touch alcoholic beverage bottles, refusing to serve drunk people (ie taxi drivers), demanding permission for prayers five times a day (if given due to flexible working hours it's fine), etc are bullsh*t.

[Rick1]

Of course the immigrants should also make some sacrifices on their side, for sake of integration. Refusing to touch alcoholic beverage bottles, refusing to serve drunk people (ie taxi drivers), demanding permission for prayers five times a day (if given due to flexible working hours it's fine), etc are bullsh*t.

This b.!"#¤% as you call it is happening already in certain EU-countries. The bigger the muslim community gets (which is very well promoted in the koran; large families) the more demands will come up, as can be seen here.

[umit]

Of course the immigrants should also make some sacrifices on their side, for sake of integration. Refusing to touch alcoholic beverage bottles, refusing to serve drunk people (ie taxi drivers), demanding permission for prayers five times a day (if given due to flexible working hours it's fine), etc are bullsh*t.

This b.!"#¤% as you call it is happening already in certain EU-countries. The bigger the muslim community gets (which is very well promoted in the koran; large families) the more demands will come up, as can be seen here.

If it is limited to individuals it is bullsh*t, otherwise it is democracy

[Rip]

!"#¤%, there is already woman only swimming time but that wasnt enough.

It's unclear to me though if those taking the initiative were the Muslim immigrants themselves or natives, of which a certain fraction seems to have a habit try to fulfill their every wish, even imaginary ones.

[network_engineer]

To the post made at Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:45 pm.

Indeed!

1. The statement: Live and let live. Maybe this statement is being misunderstood. In its entirety, it means one has the right to enjoy the same rights as everybody, have the same duties as others towards society. NOT MORE! And certainly not based on some whim.
- You said even immigrants pay taxes. Agree completely, and yes, repeat: one has the right to the SAME benefits as others. NOT MORE! In others, if everybody (including the likes of you) is paying e.g. 37% of their salary as taxes and everybody is enjoying say x amount of benefits, you are entitled in all respects to X amount. NOT X+X+Y!!!
- The SAME rights as others, NOT more.
- If you still did not get it: In other words, why are your women more expensive to the society than the local women, in other words, why do they demand preferential treatment?

2. Commercial? Demand-and-supply??? These are (as I understood) NOT part of a private swimming facility, but those built on tax monies paid. Every one has an EQUAL right, and that does not mean that you have a "more equal right" to facilities built on public money. In this particular case, build private swimming pools. I am sure land is available. See my next post on the use of public money!

3. Taking the case of swimming, as is the issue here, this is Finland, i.e. Finnish society, where swimming pools are shared between men and women as SOCIETY has deemed appropriate. SOCIETY here has also deemed appropriate that there are separate saunas, washrooms, and lockers for men & women. If you cannot accept it, there is also the freedom to leave and yes, in a liberal economy, we also sell one-way tickets to your land of freedom.

4. Finland needs immigrants - Yes. No, I doubt if the society here needs immigrants NOT willing to integrate and if I may say assimilate. Finland, and the world is kinda facing issues with immigrants with "steadfast ideals". "Steadfast ideals" which have created and ruined their homelands. Some escape those, but try and establish the same here. Question: Why?

5. Rubbish! No, swimming in segregated hours and segregated manner does not lead to integration.

6. Knowing the situation in other countries, can you promise that no futher demands will be made? Case in point: Have you heard about the clay pigs that were being made in Espoo? I only heard of this, so I cannot give you complete details, but went something like this:

The Helsinki centre has some porcelain decorations, in the form of turtles. Other cities have other creatures. Espoo decided to put small tiny porcelain pigs. Guess who raised the issue and created an "issue" out of it? No prizes!

7. There are more muslims in India that the neighbouring countries. How come they are muslims yet don't make such extensive demands on public resources? I know this for a fact! Don't bring "being a muslim" into the equation here. There is NO standard definition of rules or traditions. Each region has its own interpretation and values. You should know that better.

8. Most Finnish women and most women in general, yes, including members of my family swim as per locals. They don't make special demands on the system. Our family doctor is a male. In fact, her OB-GYN when we had our son was a male doctor and an EXCELLENT one at that.

What next?
- Taxi drivers driven by women only?
- Hospitals for women only?

9. As regards your example of being in a muslim or african countries - you are mixing issues. Personal issues with those that are public facing, i.e. issues that put pressure of society. This is about demanding public resources for private needs. If you want equation, then let's talk about pressure on the local muslim society being put on by immigrants. Such as: the freedom to mingle between sexes - FREELY! freedom to worship any religion or diety - freely! Women being able to wear dresses as THEY please, not as what the local society dictates. A proper response to this request for swimming times should have been: When such countries allow immigrants to maintain their values, you'll get swimming times as per your need.

10. Added later: Most importantly, you should check the HS.fi pages to see what the reaction of society is to this.

11. And lastly, I just combined thoughts in my head with:
- your response that included circumcision,
- and then the post from Rick1 at Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:11 pm about large families.
- and then the problem being faced by the world with people with "steadfast ideals"

My conclusion? I think they are snipping the wrong part and not snipping enough!

[network_engineer]

PS: Don't get me wrong here. I say the same thing to my Indian friends as well, who want the city to pay for teaching their kids the parents mother-tongue and culture just because they pay taxes. I ask them too: why is your kid more special, why does the state have to pay more for teaching him your language and culture? If all kids cost X amount of currency, your kids cost X amount plus Y amount. Why? You want it? Pay from your pocket! Sorry, that's just how I feel. The society has more pressing needs, such as medical facilities, pensions, police facilities, infrastructure to maintain, children who need support, etc. Your culture, language and related whimsical needs come far at the bottom of the list that I want to contribute with my tax monies and even then I don't want to pay for it.

Your being here is a privilege on several counts:
- Escape from the system in your country that you do not like
- The right to work and earn better
- To be in a work culture that supports family and work

Don't abuse the rights and don't try to tread on the locals! You always can choose what is more important. If segregated swimming is your preference, chase the dream in a land that supports it. After all, one does not chase e.g. the American dream in an African or Asian country!

[umit]

To Network-Engineer:

a) EQUITY doesn't mean JUSTICE at all times. Sometimes even being equal may be injustice... (I think the ombudsman referred to this by "promoting true equity")

b) Segregated swimming: I misunderstood the demands of the immigrant women. I thought they want "women only" swimming hours... I agree with you on this: segregated swimming doesn't help integration. (Maybe at this point our discussion became nonsense, but let's continue )

c) This kind of demands are not coming only from immigrants. Native gays, lesbians, vegetarians, smokers, drug addicts, disabled, farmers, fishermen, etc. demand special treatment for themselves. Can you say to a disabled: You are not more equal than me, that's why there will be no more special ramps for your wheel chair. You can stay at home or we sell one way ticket to any country, which is willing to provide you with this freedom of move...??

d) Yes, I know very well that there is no standard definition of rules or traditions. Being muslims my wife and I don't see any problem to swim in mixed pools or beaches.

e) As regards to my example about being in a muslim country or africa, no I'm not mixing the issues... Let's twist the example a little bit. You are living in a muslim country and they are putting pressure (let's say they exempt non circumcised male kids from free healthcare and education) on you and other non-muslim immigrants to circumcise their sons to integrate into the society. (The only difference is passive and active pressure.) If you accept circumcision, in accordance with "if you go rome do what romans do" rule or prefer to pay your sons healthcare and education from your pocket, then I'm afraid you have some probems my friend...

f) My conclusion is "homo homini lupus". Mankind has been defining norms since ages for a better living. It has evolved a lot and continues to evolve...

[network_engineer]

Let me start with this: On the good side, at least you agree being moderate, and to agree to disagree. But I'll stop my points with this last post. The others are continuing on the HS.fi website. So, just for the sake of discussion:

a)
Equity? EQUITY? Talk of equity? Let's talk of equity when e.g. in the "lands-with-steadfast-ideals" women can go out, drive on their own without permission, work where they choose, have a drink if she so wants, swim in a pool where there are others, not forced to hide their faces, talk to anybody she wants and still have her head on at the end of the day, in general, have the freedom to be herself, and at the end of the day have her head on her neck i.e. not beheaded. Talk of equity when a child is allowed her childhood and not forced into a marital(!) relationship before she can read and spell her name correctly.

Don't know where you learnt(?) your English, but equity in itself means the quality of being fair or impartial. I.e. without respect to race, religion, creed. MW goes ahead and defines it as:

"justice according to natural law or right ; specifically : freedom from bias or favoritism"

That is why I am a bit surprised at the news. Take a look at section 6 of the Finnish constitution. And yes, google it and you can find it in English too.

c)
Regarding special needs met according to disabilities, indeed! INDEED! My stance is this: If a child or anyone else for that matter, no matter his or her background was, if it needs medical attention, or needed specific arrangements because of a disability, I would say go right ahead, no matter the cost to the taxpayer. Now, associating a whimsical fantasy based on a concept of evolution to a disability, I would just say "Indeed" and leave it at that. If I wrote anything more direct, it would not be a fair use of the forum!

Questions is - where does it stop? A lot of the countries, as I mentioned earlier are realising the problem now. And yeah, the other groups that were mentioned in the post, there is a big difference. They (at least I am not aware of any significant numbers) DON'T in the name of their own personal values or personal interpretations impose their demands on others, such as no ferrying passengers who enjoy alchohol and other acts, etc. which thankfully, you yourself say you do not agree with.

e) Well, considering that the topic of circumcision seems to help best understand (and you are welcome to twist of snip it as much as you want), here's how I (and a lot of the public judging from their comments on HS.fi) see the issue:

Example:

- Being in a country with so called "steadfast-ideals"
- Free medical care provided only to circumcised males.
- An immigrant not wanting to circumcise his son
- Having to go to a private doctor
-> BUT EXPECTING THE STATE TO PAY FOR IT. WOULD THE COUNTRY PAY? If you say yes, who are you kidding?

Such countries don't even allow people to maintain their personal values in the privacy of their home or even allow association to maintain their faith in their land. Never mind residents, such countries don't even spare visitors. But when they move to another's land, then they make demands and expect the same that they would never give.

That what I opine too, one is welcome to their needs, if it is different from the rest of the society, pay for it from your own pocket. Build a pool and soak or swim as long as one wants. You see, here in Finland too, i.e. let's take the example of children, families have additional medical insurance (the premium and the deductible that we pay from our pocket), if we wish to take our children to private medical practitioners. The state doesn't pay nor does it come from public monies.

Question: if one had been in a temporary residence in such a country as above, would an immigrant be even allowed to make such a request as in the case of a swimming pool? Could even a female foreigner residing there choose to associate as she please? These countries have time and again made it very clear, when here, do as we tell you, wear what we tell our women to wear, and behave as we tell our women to. No exceptions! Case-in-Point!

Key issue here: When one moves to a country, integrate, and assimilate if the societies values conflict. If one cannot be part of society, then choose what is more important and chase after that.

f) No offence meant, but as regards your point f), ROTL! Evolved? Evolution? You see, where I learnt, the word evolution implies the word as it is supposed to be - "evolution". Maybe the word evolution means something else in other places. I.e. MW defines it as:

(1): a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state [of growth]
(2): a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance

You see, the word evolution implies the word "advance", i.e. worse to higher, better state.

Kind regards.

[Vesper]

potatoes and apples, I say... potato demands dirt to drink water, apply demands suck it up from the roots and hang free!

[Mölkky-Fan]

There are also many women only fitness clubs etc being advertised here, so there must be a demand.

Seems you need a bit of economic lesson. Care to do some self-study on demand and supply?

There are women only saunas as well, and there were already women swimming times at our local pool. What is the problem?

That's the point. Men and Women. No other !"#¤%.

Also integration does not mean that people have to give up their own religious beliefs as long as it does not break any laws.

So, swimming with Christian/Buddhist/Hindu/Jewish etc. women is against their religion? @#$% their religion then!

Sorry for the delay in replying, as I have been away for mid summer.

No idea who pseudo is so am not sure if it is worth answering, but pleased to say I have an economics degree and run a successful company, so I have a little idea about supply and demand. I guess you must be straight out of school to be able to jump to such conclusions without knowing any facts.

That is what they campaigned for, seperate men and women swimming times Just read the rest of the posts, and there seems some confusion about what they were asking for... just to be clear I support men and women seperate, but not religious seperation. In our local pool the muslim ladies, including a friend of ourfamily, and their children swim in the women only times, and yes they asked to get seperate men's and women's times. I would guess the press were playing this up, 'slow news day' strikes again.

[Rosamunda]

The national programme which allows immigrant children to maintain their mother-tongue fluency is, IMO, excellent and I'm sure it will be replicated in other countries in Europe. By the way, that programme is also aimed at RETURNING FINNS and children of mixed marriages (eg Finnish mother, Turkish father etc), not just immigrants. My kids were on the French programme (even though they are Finnish, not French).

The children are taught in school (ie no incremental expense for the classrooms) and the teachers are usually immigrants themselves (which boosts employment amongst immigrants). BTW, the wages are not brilliant, when I was teaching on that programme, I was paid around 20€ per teaching hour. Hardly the hourly rate of an IT consultant...

The logic behind the programme is that children from all backgrounds should have the possibility to retain their cultural roots. Maybe one day those children will want to go and work in their "home" country, how can they possibly do this if they don't speak the native language? Another reason is to do with literacy. By helping a child to become fully literate in his native language, you will help him to improve his fluency and accuracy in Finnish. Generally, that's how language acquisition works: bilingual children are generally more literate than monolingual kids. Another reason is to do with family values. If a child cannot communicate effectively with his own parents and grandparents, then all kinds of social problems start emerging. All children should be given the opportunity to value their cultural roots, rather than be forced to suppress them.

[Rick1]

Sounds good but does that now mean that every diffirent language speaking child has to swim at different times?