surveillance

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Pursuivant
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Re: surveillance

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:05 am

Rip wrote: Having an official ID is voluntary, but living without one is something that I would consider unnecessary inconvenience. You do not need have a permanent residence permit, but you do need to have registered as having 'permanent' domicile here in the population database.
Yes well if you do not have an ID, i wouldn't rent you my house. I would not sell you my car either unless with export plates. You'd be a tourist, so you wouldn't be able to go to school either so the point is rather moot.
Last edited by Pursuivant on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: surveillance

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Pursuivant
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Re: surveillance

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:09 am

Curious1 wrote: I'm getting VERY mixed messages on this,
Finns don't have ASBO's, we annoy our neighbours ourselves.
Last edited by Pursuivant on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
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Curious1
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Re: surveillance

Post by Curious1 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:32 am

Is it really necessary to be abusive like that?

Weren't you the one a few comments ago, remarking how helpful you are (bottom of page 2), and trying to draw me into giving out information?

I have a serious problem here. I am not happy where I am, I am looking to move somewhere better (not "tourist" at all), but I have certain strong conscientious beliefs which make certain things red-lines for me. My problems may seem small or amusing or irritating to you, but they would not if you were in my shoes. On the other hand I need to figure out whether the problems I would face are insurpassable obstacles or hurdles to be got over.

I'm not interested in *your* preferences on the matter, I'm interested in whether it can be done. I very much doubt you're even a landlord, and I challenge you to find where I said I wanted to throw wild parties. If you don't feel inclined to be helpful without resorting to this kind of comment than please don't get involved.

Curious1
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Re: surveillance

Post by Curious1 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:35 am

Repeating the serious question (asking for second/third opinion):

Is it possible to live in Finland with KELA card and number, British passport but no "voluntary" ID card?
Does this mean no renting, electricity, etc - or are there workarounds (using the KELA number and/or the British passport)?

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Pursuivant
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Re: surveillance

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:42 am

Curious1 wrote:Is it really necessary to be abusive like that?
This is FINLAND my china, not touchey-feeley-group-hug-america. if you cannot deal with an imaginary person on the internet how can you deal with reality here. Your nads will freeze with all that tinfoil in your pants :lol:
Last edited by Pursuivant on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

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Re: surveillance

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:45 am

Curious1 wrote:Repeating the serious question (asking for second/third opinion):

Is it possible to live in Finland with KELA card and number, British passport but no "voluntary" ID card?
Does this mean no renting, electricity, etc - or are there workarounds (using the KELA number and/or the British passport)?
My friend does it all the time - hes adamant not applying the Finnish citizenship and carrying his British passport all the time. But AFAIK, the British passports are biometric, so what is the catch?
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

Curious1
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Re: surveillance

Post by Curious1 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:02 am

So it CAN be done, but you want to scare me off because you don't like me ;-)

Unfortunately for you, there are other people trying the same thing in the place where I am and the other places I might move to. So your presence is not sufficient reason to avoid an entire country. Perhaps to avoid *you*, though I daresay like most internet tough guys you're nicer in real life ;-)

Ohh... the catch for me would be, I really don't want fingerprints on file (now or when the thing's upgraded). UK was going to introduce this for the passport but stopped it.

Rosilla
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Re: surveillance

Post by Rosilla » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:32 am

Curious1 wrote:So it CAN be done, but you want to scare me off because you don't like me ;-)

Unfortunately for you, there are other people trying the same thing in the place where I am and the other places I might move to. So your presence is not sufficient reason to avoid an entire country. Perhaps to avoid *you*, though I daresay like most internet tough guys you're nicer in real life ;-)

Ohh... the catch for me would be, I really don't want fingerprints on file (now or when the thing's upgraded). UK was going to introduce this for the passport but stopped it.

I dont think he was trying to be mean to you personally, more like he was trying to show you how it WILL be in Finland. Most people in Finland do not take kindly to foreigners especially those who do not conform to the Finnish ways of things. Do not take it personally, it is just the REALITY of what you WILL encounter while in Finland. You can make it without the magic card BUT in reality it will be harder to do a lot of things. And without it some people may even look at you even closer, because you do not have one.

on a side note all of your I's have to be dotted, and your T's have to be crossed or you will encounter many issues. Just check out this video, it is a comedy but is also true in more ways then one;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l22F3kul ... r_embedded
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Rip
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Re: surveillance

Post by Rip » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:26 am

Curious1 wrote:Repeating the serious question (asking for second/third opinion):

Is it possible to live in Finland with KELA card and number, British passport but no "voluntary" ID card?
Does this mean no renting, electricity, etc - or are there workarounds (using the KELA number and/or the British passport)?
It would of course have to be possible simply on the grounds that there are foreigners living here who are not entitled to get yet an ID card and they do not live all in mud holes without electricity. QED.

I'd assume that with bigger companies you could always get things done, although you may have problem with first layer of customer service personnel ("This is MY Finnish issued credit card, and this is valid passport, even if it is not Finnish, and it is a valid prove of my identity, even if you can't write the last digits of Finnish ID on the receipt slip, as you are used to doing with Finnish credit cards" kind of conversations apparently take place). With private landlords it is within their discretion. Often they like simple things, which in this case would mean Finns or at least foreigners that can show with Finnish issued ID paper that they live here (of course you could prove it with other documents do, but if the are other worthy candidates to choose from, the simpler option usually wins)

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Re: surveillance

Post by Rip » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:32 am

Curious1 wrote: Ohh... the catch for me would be, I really don't want fingerprints on file (now or when the thing's upgraded). UK was going to introduce this for the passport but stopped it.
They collect them now for the newest passports (the police did not get their wish through to be able to access the records for criminal investigation), but not yet at least for the ID cards (or driving licence). if the rules would change, that would become your problem at the point when your old card expires and you'd want to get a new one, not before.

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rinso
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Re: surveillance

Post by rinso » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:19 am

Curious1 wrote:Repeating the serious question (asking for second/third opinion):

Is it possible to live in Finland with KELA card and number, British passport but no "voluntary" ID card?
Does this mean no renting, electricity, etc - or are there workarounds (using the KELA number and/or the British passport)?
Like Rip said, it should be possible. But you will find it very inconvenient. In many cases it will be up to the discretion of the people behind the counter. And if you behave as paranoid in real life as here on internet, that discretion will be very limited.

And nobody mentioned it, but tax records are public here. They are even published in an annual paper. (Iirc they are also available on internet) So if you make a weird impression like you have to hide something, there are many ways to find out more about you.

luckykitty
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Re: surveillance

Post by luckykitty » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:31 pm

Curious1 wrote:I'm considering coming to Finland to study (from within the EU, and probably to one of the smaller cities rather than Helsinki), but I have huge privacy objections to all kinds of surveillance, basically it causes me anxiety to be made to feel on display, it means I can have anxiety attacks (don't try to argue as this is a kind of gut response I have and not something I will be talked out of). I'm trying to figure out if Finland is a good place for me.
I think if you're in a small city in Finland, (or town should I say), you probably won't find much CCTV since there's not even many buildings or shops.

Things you may like to know:
RFID Bus cards are used on buses and trains, which record the time and date you made your journey (ie when you enter the bus/train). You can buy regular tickets at a higher cost, so this is not compulsory.
Internet and phone conversations saved for about 3 years? Not sure which one it was, but I think it was both internet and phone.

Answers (to my knowledge):

Are there a lot of CCTV cameras?
Depends on what you mean by alot. I think in comparison to the UK, maybe less or similar. No one seems to care about it much here, hence there hasn't been a big deal of information explaining to the public where all these things are.

In what kinds of settings? Just in shops and banks? Or in the streets as well? What about public transport, and taxis?
In the tram, on the train, in McDonalds, probably in R-kiosk, probably in some areas of bars for security. Possibly on the street, there's some odd looking posts that could be cameras. Think I didn't notice any in taxis.


Do a lot of public buildings (places I'd actually have to use) have card-access or guard-controlled access?
You don't need much card access except for hotel lifts, hotel rooms, office lifts, some apartment buildings in the central city, entries into offices. So in your working life mostly? Most old apartments just operate by good ol' key n lock.

Are there notices everywhere reminding people of all the things they're not allowed to do?
No, people are quite law abiding here. So there's only signs like no-parking, no food/drinks on the bus, I can't remember what else.

Are there a lot of police about? How, if at all, do they interact with people (assuming they don't actively suspect you of anything)? Do they do random stops, and if so for what kinds of reasons and how often? Do police or security guards commonly do searches or ID checks in public places?
No. There are not ever many police around unless there's pub brawls or they are chasing someone. Searches on random citizens I haven't really seen, since they are mostly not around anyway. And when they are, they are probably busy with something else.

What are the housing arrangements mostly like? Are they mostly apartment blocks with outer locks shared by all the residents, or are they mostly self-contained units? Are gated communities common or rare?
Yeah the outer lock is shared with the whole building, since your own apartment key opens the outer lock.

What about at universities? Would I have to interact with guards or use card scanners to get in or out of university buildings? Are there cameras in the lecture-halls or in places like libraries?
You may need to use a card to get access to some rooms, probably computer rooms etc, that are restricted to students.

In what kind of circumstances would I need to show ID? Is it common?
When you go to a bar, or buy alcohol.

Does it make a difference where I live? Is it better in this regard to be in a smaller town rather than a large one for instance? Or in towns which habitually have certain parties in power rather than others?
If you are paranoid about CCTV, then obviously a smaller town is a better choice.

Is there anything else along these lines that I would need to worry about? I
think surveillance is in the whole EU. if you want to get away from survellaince, you probably need to live on an island, or in the forest somewhere.

I would like to be able to be active socially as much as possible, but if necessary I can live with only using home, university, streets, and basic services (such as medicine).
Social activity is fine here as long as you can open up and meet some friends. Probably important to meet some Finnish friends to really feel like you're accpeted in society, because basically you miss out on lots of social events without Finnish friends. Possibly Finnish language is really important for understanding what's going on in society here, you can read alot more papers, there's alot of hobbies, activities, general that have information in just finnish sometimes. But then again you can probably survive on English but might feel a bit segregated.

Also, if Finland is not good in this regard, is it pretty much the same everywhere or are there better places?
Finland doesn't feel like a place where you are watched much, but I think it takes some time for people to get used to Finnish customs and culture so it depends how you personally like that.

Here's some links for more reports on privacy in Finland:
(not totally up to date, 2007 was the latest)
http://www.privacyinternational.org/art ... 347-559538

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Re: surveillance

Post by Curious1 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:48 pm

I don't come across as badly in person as I probably have here. I come across as anxious and a bit incompetent. One of my issues with cameras is that if you come across as anxious and a bit incompetent on camera, whoever's watching thinks you're up to something (ditto with random stops, card checks, profiling from masses of data, and a whole lot of the things I listed). On the other hand, neighbours and shop assistants have so far been more inclined to take it as meaning I need assistance. Or quite possibly as something to make fun of once I'm gone. I also give away a lot more details about myself when it isn't a location which anyone in the world can google for ;-)

Apologies if I gave a bad impression. I wasn't meaning any disrespect to Finnish people or culture. Apart from on the handful of issues which are touchy for me, you'll probably find I acculturate better than the average foreigner. Of course I intend to learn the language, but you understand they do not exactly offer GCSE Finnish at the local community colleges in the UK ;-) I just wanted to find out about the nodal issues *before* I take the big leap of moving to another country. Bureaucracy is another big difficulty for me but one I find ways round, usually with help from friends.

I'd like to thank all the people who have helped me with the difficult questions I've been asking :)

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sinikala
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Re: surveillance

Post by sinikala » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:52 pm

Curious1 wrote:I don't come across as badly in person as I probably have here. Apologies if I gave a bad impression. I wasn't meaning any disrespect to Finnish people or culture.
We're not bothered how you come across, and this is a message board, people hardly take any of it personally. You do however, come across as an utter loon. Or mentalist as Alan Partridge calls them.

Yes you can live below the radar, without Kela coverage - think NHS and DWP rolled into one. But the local authorities won't like it, and it will make life harder for you if you do.

Anyway, more immediate and relevant questions than "are there cameras everywhere" should be "how are you going to support yourself?". You have told us you want to come to Finland to study.
Curious1 wrote:I'm considering coming to Finland to study (from within the EU, and probably to one of the smaller cities rather than Helsinki)
Suggests you have not identified a town, or a course.

So, to study what? The courses available in English are very limited and confined to the Polytechnics, not the universities (think Mickey Mouse). What are you planning to do for a career? Come and study for a first degree in English here and you are unlikely to be able to get a job. Believe you me, the standard of tertiary education is far higher in the UK than in Finland.

At the moment you have precious little to offer Finland, and Finland is going to give you very little for free. Seems like you're looking at the minutiae without having looked at the bigger picture.

Your style of writing reminds me of another person who posted on here a few years back - I forget his name - he came here to study in Helsinki, moved to Hämeenlinna, fell off his bike broke his collar bone... that might trigger others remember his name. an utter Loon, you'd do well to read his posts to see how it all went pear shaped.

From the content of your posts you either lack any real-world experience (still a schoolie?) or you are away with the pixies like the kid whose name escapes me. I hope it's the former.
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Pursuivant
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Re: surveillance

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:01 pm

Curious1 wrote:but you understand they do not exactly offer GCSE Finnish at the local community colleges in the UK
Not? NOT?? By Jove I need to contact my EU-parliamentarian, thats such a disgrace!!! (After all they teach Polish these days) :roll: :shock: :lol:
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


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