Bad news for international students(tuition fees fr masters)

[Tiwaz]

There are Finns as well who cannot be bothered learning proper Finnish...try to pay Ostrobothnia a visit and you will know what I mean.

I know that region. And those over there who cannot speak Finnish are generally old people who are already at least near grave if not with one leg in it.

Younger generations are effectively either bilingual or Finnish speakers.

I agree that many foreigners do not
bother to learn Finnish and refuse to accept that things are done differently in Finland but there are also many who try to learn the language and want to integrate. However, it is not very encouraging to learn Finnish when all you hear is that Finnish is so difficult to learn and I know many who would like to spend time with Finnish people but what does
it help if Finnish people do not want to spend time with them?

Finnish is hard to learn. It's structure is very different from huge majority of languages. Are you foreigners all averse to difficulty? Do you think my level of English came to me in a dream? Or basic Swedish or German I have managed to grasp?

It swings both ways. For Finns it can be very difficult to learn these languages with structures which make no sense to us. Yet we learn. Less complaining, more working often helps with difficulties.

As for Finns not wanting to spend time with people. It is our right not to spend time with people we do not like. Perhaps foreigners should again pay more attention to Finnish culture and less to their own arse.

I have a Finnish fiancé and since I am Nordic most people mistake me for being a Finn so I have not be discriminated as such but i have had to work very hard to really get to know Finnish people since I did not want to isolate myself with other foreigners.

Here is that word again... Discriminate. Discriminate this, discriminate that.
And this time discrimination is not wanting to be around someone!
I guess we Finns do not have right to choose our company either!
This is what I talk about when I say that you foreigners should stop tossing your favorite terms "racism", "prejudice" and "discrimination" around so lightly. You declare things which are essentially aspects of Finnish culture to be "racism/prejudice/discrimination".

Newsflash, overall, Finns are not big fans of huge circles of "friends". Thus, it is hard to get to know people. They have to want to know you first.

I have lived little over 2 years in my current home. I have little to no contact with neighbors. And honestly I do not feel like having much either. Do I discriminate against them too? They are all Finns you see...

Even the universities create this reputation that foreign students are just in Finland to party by basically only arranging social events that involve getting completely hammered and many events are arranged for foreign students seperately from Finnish parties. I also think there's a difference between being an exchange student in Finland and being a degree student. Many degree students are in fact very hard-working and of course I do not have much sympathy for those who do not want to learn the language or culture.

So have foreign students lost ability to organize? I recall from my student times that it was students who organized much of social events. And yes, drinking is often very large part of those gatherings.

Perhaps you should acknowledge that it is part of Finnish society, for better and for worse.

Having said that, Finnish people abrod are not much better. I have met plenty who never bothered to learn the language of the country and who did not want
to spend time with locals or even other foreigners. But of course not all Finns are like that as well as not all foreigners isolate themselves in Finland. Generalization is excatly
what leads to discrimination and prejudices.

And those Finns are problem of those countries. I, or Finland, have no interest, duty or need to interfere with such things. If Finns behave badly in you country, toss them out or whatever your law states. Or treat them like royalty for all we care, just do not expect that we blindly do the same to you.

[Tiwaz]

Can't generalise. Whilst living in Heinola, I met 2 ladies (at different times)..1 from Kokkola, the other from Vaasa. Both were young Moms who'd married Finnish speaking men. 1 I met in my beginners Finnish class and the other one in Russian lessons. I must admit that my Finnish is much better than theirs even now and I've only lived in Finland for 14 years. At the moment, I work with a couple of Swedish-speaking Finns, both 30 something females, whose Finnish language skills pretty much equal mine, which isn't saying too much! We have a Swedish speaking area in Turku, near Kupittaa.. I'm sure if I dig around in this neighbourhood, I'd find some more.

Alas, they speak Finnish. And honestly, that is still small minority.
I know this lady from around HKI area who married cousin of my wife. She shies away from speaking Finnish as it is not exactly perfect. But should she desire to do so, she can make her statement understood.

and to say all Finns are this or that is nonsense. We have 5 neighbours on our street. 3 are friendly and talkative, as my husband is, the other 2 families hide in their homes. Same thing when we lived in Heinola. More than half the neighbours were friendly. I can say, too, that the friendlier neighbours + my Finnish husband, although they understand that the others are Finns, critisise and make-fun of the non-friendly ones for not being friendlier. No different than anywhere else. Never know what is said behind someone else's walls.

And how much contact you have with them?

I talk with my neighbors from time to time, nod a greeting to them and so forth.
But I do not spend time with them. And honestly, very few of people I know do that either.

Of course, countryside is different thing. Next door neighbor (well, few hundred meters is next door) often visits my mother who lives on countryside.

Then again, over there social circles tend to be quite a bit different from cities.

Of course all Finns are not this or that, but averages are what I speak of. You could make any claim about any nationality if you dug up couple exceptions, but that does not represent reality. Averages represent reality.

And average Finn is not "social" in sense most foreigners understand concept of social.

[sammy]

Remember that when we talk about students, no-one at the university asks, when the admissions are decided on, what the student will do after graduating. And why should they - it's not their business really, the institutions can't dictate what the student should do once he or she is awarded the degree.

Hmm, actually, I'm pretty sure I was asked this question during the interview, so I guess there are exceptions.

Oh, really? Well... I'm just assuming but maybe that was merely to find out how motivated / focused you are - I find it hard to believe that they'd actually denied you admission if you happened to say "after I'm done with my degree I'll go to my home country" or something to that effect... don't know really! But it's of course more than likely that the institutions wish that students would stay, because then in the long run they'd either benefit the society as taxpayers - or do postgraduate studies

@Tiwaz, I only presented a few points of view to the effect that, from the point of view of the actual fee issue, and university admissions in general, it's sort of irrelevant whether the degree students eventually integrate/stay or not... compare the situation with those UK-studying Finns who need to pay the tuition fees whether they stay there after graduation or bugger off back to Finland. I more or less agree with you that after graduation, if one wishes to stay, then "integration" and the old "when in Rome..." comes into play. But as said, the difficult issue is whether only those students who swear to stay in Finland after their graduation, to learn the language, and how to bake Karjalanpiirakka should be awarded a study placement (this as a rhetorical question, not that you or anyone else had suggested it)

[Nitro]

Remember that when we talk about students, no-one at the university asks, when the admissions are decided on, what the student will do after graduating. And why should they - it's not their business really, the institutions can't dictate what the student should do once he or she is awarded the degree.

Hmm, actually, I'm pretty sure I was asked this question during the interview, so I guess there are exceptions.

Oh, really? Well... I'm just assuming but maybe that was merely to find out how motivated / focused you are - I find it hard to believe that they'd actually denied you admission if you happened to say "after I'm done with my degree I'll go to my home country" or something to that effect... don't know really! But it's of course more than likely that the institutions wish that students would stay, because then in the long run they'd either benefit the society as taxpayers - or do postgraduate studies

Yes, it did sound like a motivation check and, in fact, it was mostly about what I would want to do, not exactly where (at least it wasn't mentioned in the phrasing). Come to think of it, I thought and still think it's a very natural question - universities are probably less than eager to spend quite some time on someone who'll then hang the diploma on the wall in the water closet and move to Hawaii to live it up with the local girls.

[Pursuivant]

basically only arranging social events that involve getting completely hammered

So what else do student unions organize? Crocheting and feng shui classes? That is the idea of student parties.

and many events are arranged for foreign students seperately from Finnish parties.

Yes well the Finns aren't that interested in going on a specially organized trip for a weekend into the forest, lake dip and savusauna and picking berries. Or what else cultural events the exchange students were organized... well, some of the stuff sounded fun. Basically the Finns buggered off "home to mom" for the weekends and such, so the foreign students were left alone like orphan devils - of course it is nice someone organizes them something lest they get cabin fever.

[Tiwaz]

Sounds like you do not know that region very well because that is not the case. Many young people have to acquire Finnish much later in life and only reach a level
of Finnish that equals a foreigner speaking Finnish.

In which areas? Yes, there are some where you can be totally Swedish. And some exceptionally... Mmm... Determined individuals might even achieve that in larger communities. But by and large, Swedish speakers speak perfectly fine Finnish.

You seem to twist everything I say. It's a waste of time to even reply to such a narrow-minded person who will always dislike any non-Finn no matter how good there Finnish is
or how much they integrated.

So basically you cannot deny what I said so you start your pointless drivel.

Where you gather that I dislike any non-Finn? I have stated that my only problem is with idiots who expect to have everything handed to them on silver platter. No effort to integrate, no effort to learn the language.

Those who do learn, I have nothing against. Hell, Raamv in this forum is kind of guy I would like to see more of in Finland.

As you said, a foreigner will always be a foreigner. Anyway, you are probably happy staying home alone with your bottle of vodka which seem to be the only company that you got.

Tsk tsk. See how uninformed you are? That I do not want to be in contact with most people does not equal me being hermit. I actually have nice circle of friends. I simply replace quantity with QUALITY.

As for foreigner being foreigner. Yes? So what? Is there something wrong in being a foreigner?
You obviously won't be a Finn, because odds of you ever getting to that level culturally is slim. But you can be integrated foreigner instead of whiner.

I just said that I have not been discriminated but yes it is discrimination not to spend time with people just because of their nationality and not their personality.

And your proof that nobody spends time with them because they are foreigners (instead of them simply not being interesting or not having figured out appropriate method of approach) is?

Ah, you have none do you? You just take your, or other foreigners, failure and then try to pin it on Finns.

Clearly you ARE foreigner, and I do not believe for one second that you could fool native that you are not. Yet apparently people talk to you since you do not see yourself as discriminated.

So how this fits into your little racist theory of Finns not wanting to know people because they are foreigners instead of not wanting to know them because they are:
A) Not interesting
B) Rude

Sounds like it's their choice, not yours.

You really should learn more about Finnish society.
It is very much my choice to have privacy and peace in my home.

Are you asking how much *I* have contact comparing to how much my husband has contact? Equal amounts and it's usually the younger women or older gentlemen who are the talkers. As much contact as is necessary to remain friendly and neighbourly. Just like anywhere else where we talk about the garbage pickup, the mail delivery, the missing cats, the noisy kids, taxes, whatever. Most people realise that it's necessary to get to know the neighbours on a friendly level so that someone is looking out for the place when we're away and vice versa.

So you try to be "neighrobly" to have your neighbors watch your yard when you are away?

And again, if you compare social connections in your country of originand Finland, in similar situation (comparing flat to house is invalid), would you say they are identical?

Kinda ridiculous to add a comparison here. Not talkin' about that. Finnish "social" is Finnish "social".

No it is not, because foreingers insist on applying their foreign cultural norms in Finnish society.

We have lots of proof of this rather stupid behavior in this forum. One thread where someone speaks how Finns do not have nonverbal communication.

This is foreigner not understanding what they are dealing with and trying to apply standards of their own culture in completely different culture.

It is very important to remind foreigners and immigrants that this is not Hubbabubba-land, things which were true at home may very well not be true here.

[jorge]

Does anybody know how much the government invests in a university student per year? I would expect that it of course changes per faculty and length. Is there any data related to this?

[onkko]

Does anybody know how much the government invests in a university student per year? I would expect that it of course changes per faculty and length. Is there any data related to this?

11300e/y in 2008 according to http://www.stat.fi/til/kotal/2008/kotal ... 03_fi.html and thats only direct costs.

[luckies]

good news.

[mehdinus]

[Upphew]

It's not any easy for them to decide to travel to finland specially for the most important climatic difficulties and short days and dismal behaviour towards these called international students.

Climatic difficulties = wrong clothing, short days... come to drink with me in couple of months, we'll stop when the sun goes down and start again when the sun rises...

Dismal behaviour? Could you elaborate a bit?

[rinso]

but the point is that finnish government will have to pay back at least hundreds of times the money gained through long term international relations policies and hidden costs.

Point is that the Finnish government (= taxpayers = us) now have to pay for 100% of the costs for foreign students, without any benefits to speak of.
It is good a small threshold is established so we pay only for people who are motivated to study here.

[mehdinus]

Point is that the Finnish government (= taxpayers = us) now have to pay for 100% of the costs for foreign students, without any benefits to speak of.
It is good a small threshold is established so we pay only for people who are motivated to study here.[/quote]
Upphew This is what I mean by dismal behaviour towards them.
To be thought as a scam who is eating up your food, your tax, your energy ....
And dear rinso, these international students pay taxes and living costs as well as you do, even though they obviously don't benefit these taxes they pay like finnish residents take advantage of; you are just observing what's on the face of every matter.
You wouldn't find such behaviours in many countries. And obviously Finland is not the only place in which you can study for free, in fact almost most of the countries do support foreign students to study in the host country to build future contacts and cultural interacts but in some countries these fields of studies are limited and some offer more fields of study.
In fact when you're in the position of a governor of a nation some thousands of euros per year are nothing instead of what you gain in future through this long term investment in human resources.

[Upphew]

Point is that the Finnish government (= taxpayers = us) now have to pay for 100% of the costs for foreign students, without any benefits to speak of.
It is good a small threshold is established so we pay only for people who are motivated to study here.

Upphew This is what I mean by dismal behaviour towards them.
To be thought as a scam who is eating up your food, your tax, your energy ....

Do I understand correctly that you say we, as the taxpayers, shouldn't expect anything in return for our tax money? And if we do, our behaviour is, shall we say questionable? If majority of the students come here, get their degree and piss off, shouldn't it be fair to put some price for the education as the benefits seems to be quite one way then?

Oh, sorry your highness that we don't bow in front of you.

And obviously Finland is not the only place in which you can study for free, in fact almost most of the countries do support foreign students to study in the host country to build future contacts and cultural interacts but in some countries these fields of studies are limited and some offer more fields of study.

Name couple of countries where you can study free. And if you pull grants as argument that the studies are free, remember that there is condition for the coming tuition fees in Finland: there must be grant program available.

In fact when you're in the position of a governor of a nation some thousands of euros per year are nothing instead of what you gain in future through this long term investment in human resources.

Some thousands of euros times some thousands of students is some millions of euros. If that leader is going to use _my_ money to fund something, s/he should be able to show how that investment works.

[Rip]

And obviously Finland is not the only place in which you can study for free, in fact almost most of the countries do support foreign students to study in the host country to build future contacts and cultural interacts

How many countries offer free study for all foreign students in language that is not an official language of the country and also without requiring them to show particularly high level of talent and brains?

(There are also study programs and schools where one needs clearly more than average talent, but looking at all the UAS and others the bar is hardly very high)