Moving to Finland without any job offer

[Upphew]

Strange all this talk about never finding a job in Finland unless you are fluent in the finnish language, YLE news last night interviewed spanish workers working in Finland in the building trade, none of them could speak a word of finnish, one spoke only spanish the other managed in english! No work here if you can't speak finnish?

And they were hired by a Finnish company being paid Finnish wages?

You go throw a stone at any construction site and nobody there will cures at you in Finnish. that doesn't mean they've found a job in Finland - they found a job in Ukraine/Poland/Romania and got shipped over.

Even less in the future as Estonian highest court decided that Estonians must get Finnish wages in Finland: http://yle.fi/uutiset/viron_korkein_oik ... ka/6471329

[sunny155]

I have been going through forums and news to learn how to get into finland without knowing finnish and without a job offer.
The easiest way was either get married to a finn or get a study visa. Even after studies there's no guarantee of job (for non-finnish speakers) and I have read lots of Indians, Bangaldesh students are doing cleaning jobs even after study completion! Getting hold of language itself is a bigger challenge than completing the masters there + add the high living costs.

Don't know if the job situation would change there anytime soon but I have been reading some news that finland is trying to attract foreigners to raise the cultural diversity and hiring the skills shortage workers .

Just got a news from YLE -
@arvonen - may be you should apply now and see. They are even concealing your nationality and it would be revealed only at the time of interview.

Helsinki now accepting "anonymous" job applications - http://yle.fi/uutiset/helsinki_now_acce ... ns/6496815

more links-
Work a growing motive for immigration - http://yle.fi/uutiset/work_a_growing_mo ... on/6496772

[Adrian42]

Even after studies there's no guarantee of job (for non-finnish speakers)

That is true in most countries for most studies, even when you speak the local language.

Getting hold of language itself is a bigger challenge than completing the masters there

That is not true. Someone who is spending a serious effort on learning Finnish can learn that during his studies.

Spending 2 hours per day, 365 days per year, for 2-3 years, is a realistic estimate for learning a language at a near-native level. That is not easy but possible.

Don't know if the job situation would change there anytime soon but I have been reading some news that finland is trying to attract foreigners to raise the cultural diversity and hiring the skills shortage workers .

It is true in nearly all countries of the world that it is harder to find a job when you don't speak the local language.

And when you need the local language in your job it is not even an option for an employer to hire you.

Just got a news from YLE -
@arvonen - may be you should apply now and see. They are even concealing your nationality and it would be revealed only at the time of interview.

Helsinki now accepting "anonymous" job applications - http://yle.fi/uutiset/helsinki_now_acce ... ns/6496815

This is about hiding the nationality and native language, which is an interesting idea with advantages.

It would not hide the level of the Finnish language skills of an applicant. And hiding that would only create a huge waste of time for both employers and applicants - it would be absurd if someone who doesn't speak Finnish would be in a Finnish-language job interview for a position where you must speak Finnish.

[tizlit]

Take it seriously when people tell you Finnish language is very difficult to learn, it takes years and years. Two hours per day does not get you anywhere, you need more, and in the end your head spins from verbs....

Your chances of finding a job here quickly are not bright.

[Upphew]

Just got a news from YLE -
@arvonen - may be you should apply now and see. They are even concealing your nationality and it would be revealed only at the time of interview.

Helsinki now accepting "anonymous" job applications - http://yle.fi/uutiset/helsinki_now_acce ... ns/6496815

This is about hiding the nationality and native language, which is an interesting idea with advantages.

It would not hide the level of the Finnish language skills of an applicant. And hiding that would only create a huge waste of time for both employers and applicants - it would be absurd if someone who doesn't speak Finnish would be in a Finnish-language job interview for a position where you must speak Finnish.

I've proofread a lot of native's applications. So there must be someone who has done that for foreigners too. And after that the application won't tell so much about the language skills.

[Adrian42]

Just got a news from YLE -
@arvonen - may be you should apply now and see. They are even concealing your nationality and it would be revealed only at the time of interview.

Helsinki now accepting "anonymous" job applications - http://yle.fi/uutiset/helsinki_now_acce ... ns/6496815

This is about hiding the nationality and native language, which is an interesting idea with advantages.

It would not hide the level of the Finnish language skills of an applicant. And hiding that would only create a huge waste of time for both employers and applicants - it would be absurd if someone who doesn't speak Finnish would be in a Finnish-language job interview for a position where you must speak Finnish.

I've proofread a lot of native's applications. So there must be someone who has done that for foreigners too. And after that the application won't tell so much about the language skills.

The application has to state something about the language skills - it is often relevant whether the applicant also speaks Swedish, German or English.

Another problem is obviously that you might have to hide some skills that would otherwise reveal too much - after all all the anonymization would become pointless when an application states that the applicant has a C2 level knowledge of both Finnish and Somali...

[Adrian42]

Take it seriously when people tell you Finnish language is very difficult to learn, it takes years and years.

That is true for any language.

The Finnish language might appear harder since it is different from the Indo-European languages we usually learn. After that initial hurdle you will see that it has a logical and consistent grammar, and it is easy to pronounce anything you read.

The opposite is the English language that appears easy in the beginning. But the pronunciation is a mess. And the grammar is even worse with more exceptions than rules.

When you really start at zero and aim at reaching C2 level (that's YKI 6 resp. IELTS > 8.0) then Finnish is likely easier than English.

Two hours per day does not get you anywhere, you need more, and in the end your head spins from verbs....

The general estimate for learning any language at a C2 level is 1000-1200 hours of serious learning.

2 hours per day for 2 years are 1400 hours, and if you actually do that you should have reached C2 level after that.

[tizlit]

Are you trying to tell me, that learning Finnish language is easier than English ?
And the grammar?
Voi anna mun kaikki kestaa!!!

[AldenG]

And the grammar is even worse with more exceptions than rules.

Yet that very well characterizes fluent usage of Finnish.

To put it in other words, just because you could say something a certain way in Finnish doesn't mean that a good speaker ever would or should. The purely logical structure of the case system and associated elements enable a myriad of potential combinations -- most of which turn out to be non-idiomatic or worse. This is why I think it's such a costly mistake to devote more energy to studying rules and tables than to studying real-life sentences. I think that's why younger, less analytically developed minds tend to reach a level of fluency so much sooner than older and more analytical ones.

[cors187]

I guess i could throw another log on the fire.(predictable idiom?)

[Sami-Is-Boss]

This is why I think it's such a costly mistake to devote more energy to studying rules and tables than to studying real-life sentences. I think that's why younger, less analytically developed minds tend to reach a level of fluency so much sooner than older and more analytical ones.

I respectfully disagree. It's better to sound unidiomatic than to keep cocking up declensions and conjugations. The former will make you sound foreign or in the worst case make it quite difficult to understand, the latter will make you sound like an actual diagnosed idiot

[AldenG]

The reason people cock up declensions and conjugations is because they think the nominative or infinitive is the real word and everything else is something you do to it.

When you learn words in context instead of in lists, that tends to be much less of a problem, if at all.

However I do agree with your embrace of respectful disagreement.