School Shooting in Finland!

[OliBlom]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 828084.ece

Click on the "read all comments" and perhaps add your own!

[LilWabbit]

Sometimes the nicest parents in the world, through not fault of their own, can have a child with a lot of problems.

I would rather say that being overly "nice", as a rule (rather than "sometimes") produces little monsters with an alarming lack of self-control. It is precisely the nicest parents who unwittingly breed potential killers. Being "nice" must be the worst, the most short-sighted and hence the most dangerous parenting principle ever invented. And no, I am not suggesting the alternative of parenting-by-terror and torture.

I don't think this kind of stuff happens due to a lack of morality in the world (whatever morality is and whoever defines it).

Morality has everything to do with it. A normal person who whole-heartedly believes in moral imperatives such as "thou shalt not kill" cannot and will not bring himself to shoot his classmates in cold blood. Yup, moral beliefs have everything to do with self-control and we should indoctrinate (yes I said indoctrinate) our kids with all the basic values of human dignity and respect to fellow humans which, until lately, have still protected our society from final breakdown.

But crikey, our kids might become "indoctrinated" while parenting with "amoral niceness" breeds sweethearts! How illeberal!

I think sometimes people just turn psychotic due to a mental illness and this is the result. You can't predict these things and you can't stop them. It's just the way it is.

This maybe true to isolated cases. However, most teenage shooters have been posthumously diagnosed non-psychotic and mentally sane. And it takes more than a flippant interview comment by a single psychiatrist to establish such a diagnosis.

It is only too convenient to blame mental illness in order to avoid sharing the blame for such heinous acts as members of the same society.

[superiorinferior]

For a non-psychotic 15-year-old to blow his classmates to kingdom come requires by logical necessity at least the following four ingredients:
...

Erm, pardon my French, but on what grounds do you base your Julia Child recipie for Colombine Kidz?

[superiorinferior]

It is only too convenient to blame mental illness in order to avoid sharing the blame for such heinous acts as members of the same society.

I think you would be surprised by how much mental illness affects everyone in all kinds of daily life activities. Depression affects nearly everyone in one way or another either via themselves or a family member or friend. Also bipolar is a very common disease, which you may be surprised, often goes undiagnosed and untreated (except with self-medication with recreational drugs and alcohol).

I mean, how do any of us know his mental state and who are we to judge him by his actions alone?

I'd say he was bonkers, to put it mildly.

[EP]

EP wrote:


Schizophrenia is not something children have.

Actually, my masters thesis was on childhood schizophrenia so I have to disagree with this statement.

Yes, AmandineK already pointed it out. And I posted this:

"Miehillä skitsofrenia puhkeaa yleensä noin 20–28-vuotiaana ja naisilla 24–32-vuotiaana. Sairaus on mahdollinen myös vanhemmalla väestöllä sekä huomattavan nuorilla henkilöillä, jopa alle 10-vuotiailla. Kuitenkin se on äärimmäisen harvinaista näin nuorella iällä ja oireet voidaan helposti sekoittaa autismiin tai aspergeriin."

Men´s schizophrenia starts usually at the age 20-28, women´s at the age 24-32. Sickness is possible also at older age and notably young age, even under 10-year-olds. But it is extremely rare at that young age, and symptoms are easily mistaken as autism or aspergen syndrom.

[Quin]

A terrible thing and i feel sorry victims and their family but the amount of kitchen psychology this kind of things provokes is impressive. Even in this thread...

[LilWabbit]

It is only too convenient to blame mental illness in order to avoid sharing the blame for such heinous acts as members of the same society.

I think you would be surprised by how much mental illness affects everyone in all kinds of daily life activities. Depression affects nearly everyone in one way or another either via themselves or a family member or friend. Also bipolar is a very common disease, which you may be surprised, often goes undiagnosed and untreated (except with self-medication with recreational drugs and alcohol).

I mean, how do any of us know his mental state and who are we to judge him by his actions alone?

I'd say he was bonkers, to put it mildly.

I'd say he was bonkers too, but that doesn't mean he was psychotic. The "illnesses" you referred to do not qualify as psychosis. Hell, I readily admit being mentally ill on the grounds you have aptly set forth.

Psychotic individual, however, cannot differentiate fact from fiction.

[yönpöllö]

As I am german it is terrible for me to read in some german online press reader comments things like "oh I´ve heard in Scandinavia everithing is so fine that this never happens"..

These arrogant postings just show me a dose of arrogance and enviousness. I think a number of germans (NOT all... there are enough postings against those stupid comments) implicate this awful massacre with the PISA tests and the bad results of Germany... Thats nothing but a desperate bid to set themselves in a better light by highlighting problems of others...

I just got sick reading it...

[Rosamunda]

I was just waiting for PISA to get a mention in this thread....

Soon someone will be suggesting that Karelian pasties and rubbery cheese are the root of all evil (after all, even Gordon Ramsey spat them out).

[LilWabbit]

For a non-psychotic 15-year-old to blow his classmates to kingdom come requires by logical necessity at least the following four ingredients:
...

Erm, pardon my French, but on what grounds do you base your Julia Child recipie for Colombine Kidz?

Well firstly, psychiatrist Jerald Brock disputed credibly the initial simplistic allegations by some psychiatrists that one of killers was a psychopath and the other plagued by a psychotic superiority complex (meaning that on the first account of whether they were psychotic or not, no clarity still exists).

They evidently had no moral imperative deterring them from killing their classmates (ingredient #1). They apparently came from very "nice" families. According to the first accounts they also had proven grievances towards other classmates (ingredient #2). They apparently subscribed to an apocalyptic ideology preaching hatred towards mankind (ingredient #3). They were both serious fans of violent video games and flicks (favorite game "Doom", favorite movie "Natural Born Killers") (ingredient #4), and they both fired a gun (ingredient #5) instead of throwing spears.

What part of the Julia Roberts recipe for teenage gun-violence seems so utterly inapplicable to the Columbine case?

[stevoe]

The fact is that he did it....and it was terrible...and I dont think there is anything that anyone could have done to stop it....but now I hope that someone will wake up and see that there are some things that need addressing, like guns for example...when I lived in the states there were horrific murders every single day on the news and that was only in california...every single day.....Its a big shock for it to happen here and I hope it doesnt spread....

you will never catch everyone.....and if this society starts getting paranoid about this, it will happen even more. like when you tell your kids to stop doing something...I really hope this is not the beginning of something bad. this country is knows for its safety, although there are a lot of family issues that are not being looked at, like spousal abuse, alcohol is just a normal part of life here, and it makes some people crazy, but nothings done to stop it. It's like always....someone has to doe first before "they" open their eyes and start doing something...

I didn't really have a great point here, I just dont want to see this country start to resemble other places Ive lived.

[Mizukamakiri]

I didn't really have a great point here, I just dont want to see this country start to resemble other places Ive lived.

Welcome to Globalization..

[docp]

One other ingredient to the puzzle is simply, the killers in every case never feel responsible for their actions. At least they have never stated this. I think the final suicide of the killer just represents a final escape from the consequences of their actions.

lp

[Karhunkoski]

Perhaps we should just ban guns, knives, forks, cars, electric fires, balconies, icey lakes, moose, in fact let's ban anything that has ever killed anyone. Then we are all safe.

[mCowboy]

Perhaps we should just ban guns, knives, forks, cars, electric fires, balconies, icey lakes, moose, in fact let's ban anything that has ever killed anyone. Then we are all safe.

and hands, fists, cars, sugar, alcohol, cigarettes, forks, electricity and water.