Negative and more NEGATIVE ...

[sammy]

I think the answer is tolerance and understanding i see many ENGLISH speaking countries employing a fin,a den,french,german,irish,scotish because they have accepted we are international and we are ready to mix and give good service to our best ability to whomever tolerance acceptance so FINLAND is embracing the world why can't the finns.

I didn't know that Ireland and Scotland are not English-speaking countries... good to know also that there's a huge job market in the UK for those who only speak French or German

You are half right there, but answer me - why is it that "internationalisation" always seems to entail OTHER people (ie us uncivilised barbarians) speaking English? It's understandable bearing in mind that English is taught in so many countries as the first foreign language - but what I mean to say is, if someone comes to Finland, makes an effort to learn the local language, is THAT not also "internationalisation"?

[donald]

Name jobs which are not niche jobs of highly specialized nature and do not require finnish.

There is a shortage of qualified craftsmen, such as eg. plumbers. Or, another example, a friend of mine came to Finland and in no time he got a job without speaking a single word in Finnish. He is a carpenter and hes very (read: very) good qualifications. Lately, he turned unemployed and now it seems that finding another employment is not that easy as it was the first time. But I guess he will succeed within reasonable time. There are too many engineers around in Finland, old school craftsmen are sought after.

[Megstertex]

You guys assume english is as good as finnish.

Nokia (btw, this company 3% of GDP)
Flander.com
Neste Oil
...

I guess that list is long enough and there English is official language. Every time when I come to Helsinki I hear non-Finns speech, similar to Singapore.

Actually, even though English is official language, Indians and Swedish Finns I know that work there (Neste and Nokia) tell me they eat lunch and have coffee breaks alone--cause of the language barrier. So, even if English is official language, unofficially, you can only improve your position in the company with Finnish here in Finland.

[Tiwaz]

Name jobs which are not niche jobs of highly specialized nature and do not require finnish.

There is a shortage of qualified craftsmen, such as eg. plumbers. Or, another example, a friend of mine came to Finland and in no time he got a job without speaking a single word in Finnish. He is a carpenter and hes very (read: very) good qualifications. Lately, he turned unemployed and now it seems that finding another employment is not that easy as it was the first time. But I guess he will succeed within reasonable time. There are too many engineers around in Finland, old school craftsmen are sought after.

Nobody has said you can't be lucky if you are in right place, at right time with right knowledge. But if there isn't urgent shortage of certain type of people you are going to be like your friend now. Having lots of trouble getting a job.

Notice! Your friend has already managed to get one toe in with his former job. If he were to come to Finland now he would be even deeper in trouble.

And unless your friend got himself convinced that he does not need to learn finnish he also now has advantage of at least rudimentary language skills.

[Tiwaz]

And for the list of companies...

Whole THREE companies which have official office language set to english...

They are just bound to hire ALL these willing immigrants no problems.

Most jobs are not in few huge corporations (which also hire lots of finns!) but in small to middle size companies. And those want people who speak finnish because it would be too much trouble in most cases to start catering to needs of one or two non finnish speakers.

[donald]

Nobody has said you can't be lucky...

Nobody has said that somebody has said that nobody has said you can't be lucky either.

...if you are in right place, at right time with right knowledge

That was just my point. And I personally believe that among the jobs that do not require highest qualifications, odds are better to find something like plumbing, construction work etc than any office or customer service job. Given one has enough experience, though.

[raamv]

pretty strange raamv....everytime when someone on this forum has a different opinion than yours,you tend to get hyperbolic

The very strange thing in this forum is that this same kind of discussion has taken place since its inception!! No one wants to read the History before posting this same damn thing...and no one wants to use the search function, let alone read Phil's stickies..
So Its not only my opinion...
Moreover, your assumption of my so called opinion tends to charge you on that you keep repeating what others have beensaying 4 pages before you!! and you dont give out anything new except giving out the statement that " I got a job without knowing Finnish in my first try"..Dude, you have not been here ling enough to even understand the Finnish Working Culture..
and I bet you have no clue on what your management thinks of you! not that I really care about!! So before you get parabolic, dont toot your horn!

...when was the last time you were unemployed...maybe decades ago,so that classifies your experiences of finding a job as antique and outdated....You need to realise that the situation has changed significantly since the last time you went looking for job here...wake up and take notice of the world around you...Finland has become more globalised and has done away with its inhibitions of hiring foreigners...

You see..the very fact of the questions you ask show your naive nature of your understanding of this Culture!!
I generally tell my peers and my boss that I am always one month away from my resume!! so go Figure!!
Finland has become Globalized enough to export more jobs to China and India!! As for hiring Foreigners..you have no clue on what you are being thought of in your company let alone on the coffee table discussions that take place and let alone the forced English that People speak because of you let alone the moment that you enter a conversation, People try to politely accommodate you by switching to English... and then think inside..how painful it is to do it and how they are doing out of politeness without your sorry A$$ realizing that they do it to be Polite and they can happily ignore you..not because you are special or have special skills but just out of basic curiosity..Man U re a lost soul..

And for your statement that for every one successful person,there are 10 others suffering is a baseless analogy...A foreigner who is highly skilled will easily get a job as compared to a foreigner with virtually no skills...This is how it is all across the globe...Immigrants who aren't highly skilled with virtually no finnish constitute the bulk of unemployed foreigners and we just cannot put forward their disappointing plight as reality for all immigrants..

This shows your ignorance on what people here have been trying to say.. You just want to be racially discriminating against the majority of immigrants in terming many people as below you by titling them as not highly skilled...Thats BS..They are the immigrants who have worked hard who have given you access to your so called "Finns are more acceptable nowadays"..
When the Majority of population suffering to find jobs is not reality then what is?

[Tiwaz]

Nobody has said you can't be lucky...

Nobody has said that somebody has said that nobody has said you can't be lucky either.

But it is often implied that because handful of lucky ones have managed to score a job, possibly niche job, without something as fundamental as finnish skills. They present it as rule, instead of rare expection.

...if you are in right place, at right time with right knowledge

That was just my point. And I personally believe that among the jobs that do not require highest qualifications, odds are better to find something like plumbing, construction work etc than any office or customer service job. Given one has enough experience, though.

You personally believe, perhaps. But unless there is urgent need for any given task in local area (and I think construction is starting to slow up again soon, meaning jobs there will be taken by finnish speakers in future in preference to foreigners) you are up the !"#¤% creek without paddle.

Not to mention, many tasks require some kind of training in Finland even for many mundane and low tier jobs. International papers do not necessarily mean crap in Finland unless there is some kind of agreement with graduation nation on recognisation of certificates.


By and large, people like debo and shrec are doing huge disfavour to people wanting to move in.

They keep telling how english is as good as finnish and no problems and all that crap. And add list of few companies like Nokia and Neste who might hire at best few hundred foreigners about how there apparently are no problems with job.

They ignore that these few corporations form minority of available jobs, that these corporations do not hire anyone but concentrate on rather small area of proficiency.

Effectively, they make pretty picture of getting a job which few unfortunate souls might even believe. Then when reality hits these people we have arrivals complaining in sympathy section.


Better give as brutal, and usually accurate, picture of ones chances on any given area than prop up hope that would in most cases just get smashed to pieces.

[aniorek]

some Jürgen Heissblond graduated from Nirgendwoberg Uni and worked for Sparkasse Überoberzwischenammergau.

[debonaire]

The very strange thing in this forum is that this same kind of discussion has taken place since its inception!! No one wants to read the History before posting this same damn thing...and no one wants to use the search function, let alone read Phil's stickies..
So Its not only my opinion...

So how does it bother you...If you are not interested in answering these queries then why even bother jumping in the discussion...You don't have to come up with some smart ass answers just coz someone on this forum has asked something which might have been discussed before...How the hell it frustates you man!I get a feeling that the sole purpose you jump into such discussions is to derive some sort of sadistic pleasure with your nonsensical and rude comments...

Moreover, your assumption of my so called opinion tends to charge you on that you keep repeating what others have beensaying 4 pages before you!! and you dont give out anything new...

My views will always be the same on the issues of immigration and unemployment...Atleast i don't have a fidgety attitude,unlike you, of changing my opinions every now and then to go along with the the pack...It shows your lack of character and intergrity if you can't even stand by what you believe in...
Personally i care two hoots about your opinions as you have no idea what you talk about...And what is it that you keep talking about finnish culture...I fail to understand how you consider yourself more finn that others...maybe some sort of mirage...

and I bet you have no clue on what your management thinks of you! not that I really care about!! So before you get parabolic, dont toot your horn!

Well i can give you a little idea about what my management thinks of me...This is just my second year of working here and i duly got a substantial raise when i asked for it during personal appraisal meeting...and i wonder why would they do it if they think I am not being useful to the organisation...In our company,the management cares about the quality of work one puts in and as long the work is being done on time,the management is not really bothered even if one speaks hebrew...
I may have been lucky to get this job without any finnish skills,according to you, but again luck alone hasn't kept me working here for almost 2 years...
You see i work in a globally renowned organisation...dont' know about you because you keep coming up with such narrow-minded thinking..

Finland has become Globalized enough to export more jobs to China and India!! As for hiring Foreigners..you have no clue on what you are being thought of in your company let alone on the coffee table discussions that take place and let alone the forced English that People speak because of you let alone the moment that you enter a conversation, People try to politely accommodate you by switching to English... and then think inside..how painful it is to do it and how they are doing out of politeness without your sorry A$$ realizing that they do it to be Polite and they can happily ignore you..not because you are special or have special skills but just out of basic curiosity..Man U re a lost soul..

This is how the world economy works...Maybe you need to go back to school to brush up the basics of economics...Immigrants are a very valuable asset to any country and they contribute significantly to the economy...
as for the coffee table discussions,your opinions clearly categorise you as an extremely narrow minded and unaccommodating person...You may have been victimsed earlier but its not the rule of thumb for every other foreigner...How one handles such situations depends on how sociable one is and people are more than willing to accommodate despite the language barrier...I work in a multicultural environment and people realise that not everyone is a finn...
Being polite to your colleagues is part of good work ethics...Ofcorse they can ignore me but you see they are culturally educated and believe in good work ethics...Besides most of them have a first hand experience of working abroad...I think i will let you know a secret...The only way to move forward is to be on good terms with your colleagues and superiors..
Man do i need to teach you a couple of lessons about work ethics as well...Exactly what kind of organisation do you work for?? You seriously need to change your workplace and its high time to put forward your resume...

[Tiwaz]

Did I catch your situation correctly debonaire... You work apparently in large international corporation?

Of course those are more likely to have english as office language and hire people who cannot speak their way out of wet paperbag with finnish.

Problem is, which you refuse to realise, that huge majority of jobs are not in few international corporations which employ english as office language.

Huge majority of jobs are in companies where office life is, and is preferred to remain, finnish. Anyone without good finnish language is automatically rejected from such position. Thus, point you and schecrer make about fluent english being replacement to fluent finnish is totally false.

But you refuse to realise it based on your small take of few lucky bastards who managed to make it to big company. Even when it is coming from people who have personally experienced trouble of penetrating into joblife without help from luck. Luck to either get employment in big corporation or luck of being in suitably small niche to have their lack of language skills forgiven.

[debonaire]

Did I catch your situation correctly debonaire... You work apparently in large international corporation?

Of course those are more likely to have english as office language and hire people who cannot speak their way out of wet paperbag with finnish.

Problem is, which you refuse to realise, that huge majority of jobs are not in few international corporations which employ english as office language.

Huge majority of jobs are in companies where office life is, and is preferred to remain, finnish. Anyone without good finnish language is automatically rejected from such position. Thus, point you and schecrer make about fluent english being replacement to fluent finnish is totally false.

But you refuse to realise it based on your small take of few lucky bastards who managed to make it to big company. Even when it is coming from people who have personally experienced trouble of penetrating into joblife without help from luck. Luck to either get employment in big corporation or luck of being in suitably small niche to have their lack of language skills forgiven.

I have always maintained that getting a job in finland for immigrants with no finnish skills depends on the type of corporation and the job itself...
but how can a job be outrightly rejected on the basis of language skills even when the person is well suited for the job

[Karhunkoski]

Perhaps the problem is that we all think our individual experiences are reflective of the bigger picture, when it fact it may not be....

As for suggesting that you could get by as a doctor, surgeon or dentist just by speaking English.... Only two facts could explain this thought process:

1. The author is closeted within a small foreign-weighted peer group and possibly hasn't even travelled outside of the wolf fence, let alone mixed with the local natives.

or

2. The author is a WUM.

[debonaire]

And raamv,some companies in Finland are considerate enough to realise that picking up the language for new immigrants takes time and the person neen not be unemployed for that if the person is well suited for the job...Language training can be a part of the person's profile while working similar on the lines of what our management has done for foreigners...this is what our managemnt thinks of us foreigners and are willing to extend their help so that we non-finnish speakers can integrate comfortably in the Finland but we need not be unemployed while doing so...
Anyways,coffee table discussions are not the topic of discussion on this thread...Here we are dealing primarily with employment scenario for non-finnish speakers....how a person adapts to his/her workplace is a little out of domain here...we can probably start a new thread "Life of an Immigrant at a workplace" if you so desire...but for the moment we can keep that out of the radar and focus more on the topic on this thread...

[Hank W.]

Yeah, the key word is some companies... the flipside of the coin is some companies don't.

Mind you, theres a lot of companies running on low resources that see no reason in training anybody, but trying to hire only "ready" people... so when you are a fresh graduate you end up in the catch-22 of not getting a job because you have no work experience...