moving to Finland ..living with Finn etc etc

[Pursuivant]

I fully intend to *get* a job (and, yes, any job is fine initially), but I first need to *get* to Finland.

Which is why theres all this EU free borders. But where does it say we need to pay for peoples tourist trips?

And for the record, I didn't even know about KELA integration allowance until earlier today... I'd heard about the Finnish courses, but from what I've also heard about the way they teach it, I'd be better off with an internet or 'teach yourself' course and practising on lots of people until I get better

Ah see now if you want certain things you need to fit into a certain box... so if the lady says you take course you say "yebo nkosizana" and go sit in the course Besides which if you're married to a Finn then you're of course entitled to that as your "reason" is family. And not the nonexistant job.

[Pursuivant]

Ah, but philosophically it is so - prove things with the absence of things. Like here in this case Finns would be at work Monday noontime.

[biscayne]

Look, all the Finns on the posting are right, absolutely Finland has the right to strictly control who gets registered in order to not have to hand out tons of dole money, putting people on integration programmes etc, providing health care - the works. What I'll just say, speaking strictly for myself is that it is a bit annoying seeing certain groups of people (that's all I will say about them) getting everything and basically hanging around the railway station and making a Piss of Finland, complaining about it and doing nothing to integrate, whereas the average EU citizen, Aussie, Yank, Canuk etc. would do everything to integrate and want to absolutely be a productive member of society.

For those of us from disorganised countries, well, it just has to be accepted that "2 utility bills" and one form of photo id (which could easily be fake) just doesn't cut it in Finland. And frankly, if people had to properly registered at the address where they live in the UK/Ireland, it would cut down on a lot of welfare fraud.

[Seen Canary]

Being a foreigner I actually agree with most of what Pursuivant has to say. I came here without the merest intention of leeching off the Finnish taxpayer. I never even thought about what benefits, if any, I was entitled to. A lot of the Non-Finnish posters here seem to have their priorities somewhat warped.

1. Move to Finland
2. Speak to KELA
3. Obtain integration allowance
4. Acquire free language lessons
5 Get a job

Seems to me that if whinging foreigners spent even half the time they spend whining on this forum they would probably be CEO of Nokia by now.

[Nicely]

For those of us from disorganised countries, well, it just has to be accepted that "2 utility bills" and one form of photo id (which could easily be fake) just doesn't cut it in Finland. And frankly, if people had to properly registered at the address where they live in the UK/Ireland, it would cut down on a lot of welfare fraud.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Seen Canary, I most certainly don't have my priorities in that order. Much as it grates sometimes, I also agree with some of what Hank says. The thing which pisses me off the most is being constantly tarred with the same brush as the groups which hang about the railway station. We have plenty of those in the UK too, and I agree that introducing a tighter ID system would solve many of the problem there. I don't think anyone on THIS thread is complaining about the actual system concept, only the inane bureaucracy attached to it.

[Tiwaz]

For those of us from disorganised countries, well, it just has to be accepted that "2 utility bills" and one form of photo id (which could easily be fake) just doesn't cut it in Finland. And frankly, if people had to properly registered at the address where they live in the UK/Ireland, it would cut down on a lot of welfare fraud.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Seen Canary, I most certainly don't have my priorities in that order. Much as it grates sometimes, I also agree with some of what Hank says. The thing which pisses me off the most is being constantly tarred with the same brush as the groups which hang about the railway station. We have plenty of those in the UK too, and I agree that introducing a tighter ID system would solve many of the problem there. I don't think anyone on THIS thread is complaining about the actual system concept, only the inane bureaucracy attached to it.

But has it entered your small mind that what you call "inane bureaucracy" is what KEEPS THE SYSTEM WORKING.
If they handed out ID numbers like candy, then whole point of having ID system which can reliably identify person would be worthless. As every dick and tom who wanted, would be having half a dozen "personalities" with their own unique ID numbers to pick from.
It would be same mess you have in those "developed" nations like Australia and UK where bills are proof of identity and salary might be paid with slips of paper called cheque, practically unknown in Finland.

By checking, doublechecking, triplechecking and demanding proof we keep the system reliable.

Same with tummansininen. What reason Finland has to believe that those children belong to TS? It has to be proven first, reliably.

[Pursuivant]

The thing which pisses me off the most is being constantly tarred with the same brush as the groups which hang about the railway station.

Ah see now you all advanced countries peoples told us off it was "racism" to categorize people - so now we categorize you all as equals.

[Pursuivant]

By checking, doublechecking, triplechecking and demanding proof we keep the system reliable.

Problem though the system is/was designed to handle say 1000 foreigners a year... so they still in some places have about the same resources and the same kind of bureaucracy while it would be easier to combine some of them. But it had its own hangups say like Sweden has a similar system with a few offices less... though people whining here should look into how "easy" it then is to get a Swedish "ID-kort" or open a bank account.

But in any case, there'd be far less whining if you'd get your "teillä ei ole tarpeellisia papereita, tulkaa huomenna uudestaan" right there and then at the desk...

[Seen Canary]

It's not the bureaucracy that's inane, it's the minority of petty minded, bigoted wannabe dictators that sometime staff the counters. Go to KELA, EURES, Malmi Police Station etc on a Tuesday and get treated like sh*t. Go the next day and be met with a smile, genuinely helpful advice and a Kiitos and a cheery moi moi.

Bureaucracy can't be charmed, molly-coddled, reasoned with. Don't fight it. The public face of bureaucracy however can be countered with a smile, a smattering of Finnish, politeness and perseverance.

Remember, stiff upper lip.

[Nicely]

Tiwaz, what keeps a system working is EFFICIENT bureaucracy. Inane bureaucracy is a complete lack of communication between departments dealing with related matters and, worse still, there being no defined process for dealing with matters in the same department. If it was efficient, they could tell 'leechers' to piss off in half the time. If it was run efficiently by people offering advice instead of brick walls, it would cost the government, and in course the taxpayer, considerably less to run 'the system'. Yes, an inefficient system has leeches, but many of these are bureaucrats. Bureaucracy encompasses the rules and all the people responsible for making and implementing them (i.e. counter staff).

Ah see now you all advanced countries peoples told us off it was "racism" to categorize people - so now we categorize you all as equals.

Who mentioned race? I said groups of people. I could have been talking about Finns. The notion of race came into your mind...

[Seen Canary]

Seen Canary, I most certainly don't have my priorities in that order. Much as it grates sometimes, I also agree with some of what Hank says. The thing which pisses me off the most is being constantly tarred with the same brush as the groups which hang about the railway station. We have plenty of those in the UK too, and I agree that introducing a tighter ID system would solve many of the problem there. I don't think anyone on THIS thread is complaining about the actual system concept, only the inane bureaucracy attached to it.

" the groups that hang around the railway system........".

The only difference between them and you and me is that they are not on this forum whining. Good luck to them. I wish I could hang around a railway station all day enjoying the craic.

[Pursuivant]

Go to KELA, EURES, Malmi Police Station etc on a Tuesday.

...with your arse gilt and start with "I am an EU citizen" and "I demand"...

and get treated like sh*t.

Go the next day

remembering that you are the one as(s)ki(ss)ng for something they might give you

and be met with a smile, genuinely helpful advice and a Kiitos and a cheery moi moi.

after all It's not the bureaucracy that's inane, it's them "customers" at their counters which make them so pissed off.

[Pursuivant]

Who mentioned race? I said groups of people. I could have been talking about Finns. The notion of race came into your mind...

I wasn't talking of races, I was talking of "racism" - ever heard of "age-racism"??? Its very popular word in Finland this racism.

[Nicely]

Lol. You just completely summed-up the problem. If staff can't deal with customers in a patient polite manner, they shouldn't be working in customer services. It wouldn't be accepted in any other industry, so why is it acceptable from a government department? I have a feeling you'd fit right in.

Seen, ironically, the most time I have to hang about on forums is whilst I am at work (which I am now). As I'm sure you found when you tried to apply for work before you moved to Finland (you DID do that didn't, you?), unless you have a position handed to you an a plate, it's virtually impossible to achieve before actually being there. I am very lucky to have a number of people giving personal recommendations to top people in their companies. I hope this helps me, however, I'm not expecting any results until I arrive.

[Pursuivant]

Well logically as the people are servicing the interests of the government and not the interests of the person coming behind the counter?

Say like you want a drivers licence. OK, so you can't drive but anyways.
In a private office you'd shell out enough money so the suave "customer service" person would give you a licence.
In a government office they ask you can you drive and tell you to piss off as it serves the government not to have you drive.

Kids always get really upset when they can't get candy. Mommys are government.