small questions from the news

[Jukka Aho]

Thx Jukka, you just corrected one big mistake for me, I used to prounance YLE as seperate letter.

Spelling out the individual letters is the most practical way to deal with the short form of the company name in English – and probably in other languages, too. But yes, in Finnish you should treat it as a word: “Yle”.

And it well explains why it is not YLE:N

Yes. Since their logotype is in all capitals, people often copy that visual style and write YLEn, YLEstä, YLEen etc., even though they never pronounce the letters individually. But the official the grammar-nazi recommendation is to write those short-form cases as Ylen, Ylestä, Yleen, etc.

As the difference between saattaa and saada seems to be vague for me when refer to "may" or "can", how do you choose which one to use in the real life conversation?

Hmm... I’m not sure where your confusion would stem from.

saattaa = “may”
saada = “to get”

Hän saattaa saada kultakellon syntympäpäivälahjaksi.
“He may get a gold watch for a birthday present.”

There’s also another, unrelated verb saattaa: “to escort”.

Sulhanen saattoi uuden vaimonsa ulos kirkosta.
“The groom escorted [walked] his newly-wed wife out of the church.”

[Pursuivant]

Sulhanen saattoi uuden vaimonsa ulos kirkosta.

Sulhanen saattoi uuden vaimonsa raskaaksi.

[garoowood]

Thx Jukka, you just corrected one big mistake for me, I used to prounance YLE as seperate letter.

Spelling out the individual letters is the most practical way to deal with the short form of the company name in English – and probably in other languages, too. But yes, in Finnish you should treat it as a word: “Yle”.

And it well explains why it is not YLE:N

Yes. Since their logotype is in all capitals, people often copy that visual style and write YLEn, YLEstä, YLEen etc., even though they never pronounce the letters individually. But the official the grammar-nazi recommendation is to write those short-form cases as Ylen, Ylestä, Yleen, etc.

As the difference between saattaa and saada seems to be vague for me when refer to "may" or "can", how do you choose which one to use in the real life conversation?

Hmm... I’m not sure where your confusion would stem from.

saattaa = “may”
saada = “to get”

Hän saattaa saada kultakellon syntympäpäivälahjaksi.
“He may get a gold watch for a birthday present.”

There’s also another, unrelated verb saattaa: “to escort”.

Sulhanen saattoi uuden vaimonsa ulos kirkosta.
“The groom escorted [walked] his newly-wed wife out of the church.”

As far as I know, in spite of "to get", saada carries the meaning of "may" or "can" also. Like saanko minä...; saisitko sinä;ei saa tehdä...
So that's how I am confused.

Sekä Prismoja ja S-marketteja pyörittävä S-ryhmä, Citymarketteja ja K-marketteja pyörittävä Kesko että esimerkiksi Siwoja ja Valintataloja pyörittävä Suomen Lähikauppa pitävät hintansa ennallaan.
Is pyörittävä conjugated from pyöriä which means operate? So "pyörittävä S-ryhmä" means operated by S-group? Wounldn't you need to add sth. after S-ryhmä to express the meaning "by" or just straight like that? Like agent participle use accusative to express such meaning, äidin tekemä pusero, but you don't use agent participle in this case to express such meaning?

[Upphew]

Sekä Prismoja ja S-marketteja pyörittävä S-ryhmä, Citymarketteja ja K-marketteja pyörittävä Kesko että esimerkiksi Siwoja ja Valintataloja pyörittävä Suomen Lähikauppa pitävät hintansa ennallaan.
Is pyörittävä conjugated from pyöriä which means operate? So "pyörittävä S-ryhmä" means operated by S-group? Wounldn't you need to add sth. after S-ryhmä to express the meaning "by" or just straight like that? Like agent participle use accusative to express such meaning, äidin tekemä pusero, but you don't use agent participle in this case to express such meaning?

Pyörittää = to spin, to turn, and as you said, to operate. I wouldn't call it colloquial, but...

S-marketteja pyörittävä S-ryhmä vs. Puseroja tekevä äiti. Äidin tekemä pusero vs. S-ryhmän pyörittämä S-market.

[garoowood]

Everyone went to celebrate Juhannus already?

I still have an open question whether "saada" means "can" and "may" as "saattaa"?

Pyörittää = to spin, to turn, and as you said, to operate. I wouldn't call it colloquial, but...

S-marketteja pyörittävä S-ryhmä vs. Puseroja tekevä äiti. Äidin tekemä pusero vs. S-ryhmän pyörittämä S-market.

Alright, it seems I confused myself about the meaning that present active participle carries. It actually meaning S-group that runs, operates S-markets vs. mother who makes the blouses.

Sulhanen saattoi uuden vaimonsa raskaaksi.

Here comes my new questions:
A detailed translation with grammar explanation would be appreciated

Ranskan urheiluministeri Roselyne Bachelot kertoo saaneensa Ranskan kohutun maajoukkueen pelaajat kyyneliin, kun hän piti heille tunteellisen puheen eilisiltana.

Bachelot pyydettiin mukaan hätiin, kun maanantaina joukkueen irvailtiin saattaneen koko maan häpeään ja nyt joukkueella on viimeinen mahdollisuus korjata tilanne Etelä-Afrikkaa vastaan.

Again I would give my try first:
The French sport minister Roselyne Bachelot says saaneensa(her received?) fussed French national team's players into tears, when she held an emotional speech with them last evening.
Bachelot were asked along hätiin(in to emergencies?), when the team were made fun of for the shame of the entire country saattaneen(they have brought?) on Monday and now the team has the last possibility to fix the situation against South Africa.

It looks awful
so pls...

[MikeD]

Everyone went to celebrate Juhannus already?

I still have an open question whether "saada" means "can" and "may" as "saattaa"?

"Pekka saa tulla käymään." = "Pekka is allowed to come and visit."
"Pekka saattaa tulla käymään." = "It is possible that Pekka might come and visit."

"Saada" is can/may in the sense of having the permission to do something.

[MikeD]

Here comes my new questions:
A detailed translation with grammar explanation would be appreciated

Ranskan urheiluministeri Roselyne Bachelot kertoo saaneensa Ranskan kohutun maajoukkueen pelaajat kyyneliin, kun hän piti heille tunteellisen puheen eilisiltana.

Bachelot pyydettiin mukaan hätiin, kun maanantaina joukkueen irvailtiin saattaneen koko maan häpeään ja nyt joukkueella on viimeinen mahdollisuus korjata tilanne Etelä-Afrikkaa vastaan.

Again I would give my try first:
The French sport minister Roselyne Bachelot says saaneensa(her received?) fussed French national team's players into tears, when she held an emotional speech with them last evening.
Bachelot were asked along hätiin(in to emergencies?), when the team were made fun of for the shame of the entire country saattaneen(they have brought?) on Monday and now the team has the last possibility to fix the situation against South Africa.

It looks awful
so pls...

saada kyyneliin = to bring to tears
tulla hätiin = come and help (collloquial)
saattaa häpeään = bring [sth] to shame

[Upphew]

Again I would give my try first:
The French sport minister Roselyne Bachelot says saaneensa(her received?) fussed French national team's players into tears, when she held an emotional speech with them last evening.
Bachelot were asked along hätiin(in to emergencies?), when the team were made fun of for the shame of the entire country saattaneen(they have brought?) on Monday and now the team has the last possibility to fix the situation against South Africa.

It looks awful
so pls...

With little help from MikeD, Id say that those are pretty good translations, and if you stopped to think about the meaning of sentence, you could write them in English just fine. I still stumble quite hard when translating sentences, but fare better if I just try to convey the meaning behind them. for you

[Pursuivant]

[Rob A.]

Again I would give my try first:
The French sport minister Roselyne Bachelot says saaneensa(her received?) fussed French national team's players into tears, when she held an emotional speech with them last evening.
Bachelot were asked along hätiin(in to emergencies?), when the team were made fun of for the shame of the entire country saattaneen(they have brought?) on Monday and now the team has the last possibility to fix the situation against South Africa.

It looks awful
so pls...

With little help from MikeD, Id say that those are pretty good translations, and if you stopped to think about the meaning of sentence, you could write them in English just fine. I still stumble quite hard when translating sentences, but fare better if I just try to convey the meaning behind them. for you

Yes...I think it is pretty good...it captures the essence of the sports minister's interview, or whatever it was.... As I see it, garoowood has some concerns about the "nuances" of a few of the words, which, of course, is what he is asking about.

When translating these things it depends on what your objective is. I prefer to translate as literally as possible, at least initially, so I can figure out how the words are used by native Finnish speakers and the "mentality", I guess you could say, that is being used.

However, if the objective is the final English translation, then, of course you can go further and turn it into something a typical English speaker would say. though I'm sure garoowood's objective is to learn Finnish, not become a translator of Finnish into English, but I might be wrong...

At the moment I'm getting myself prepared for the upcoming Tour de France, a part of which is to go through the Tour's official website. The English version is a direct translation of the French, which is quite obvious. It's written in a style that you wouldn't get on original English language site. But I think this is probably intentional...to capture as close as possible, the sense and "emotion" of the original French version.....

[Pursuivant]

OK, lets go literal. Literally these make sense in the other language.

Lord there be good, here is not allowed to tobacconize. Outside is permitted to burn!

Armahtakaa minua herra, mutta savustaminen ei ole suvaittua. Ulkosalla siellä on suunniteltuna savualue.

WTF&ÖÖÖ

[MikeD]

I'd be interested to know what garoowood makes of this piece of news:

Minikaivurilla ajelevaa Jukka Mutasta odottaa Pudasjärvellä erikoinen vastaanottokomitea. Pudasjärven kaupungin etelärajalla Hirvisuolla, Kaivuri-Jukkaa odottelevat taiteilijat Kimmo Takarautio jättikokoisen joulupukin ja mammutin kanssa sekä Kari Tykkyläinen korkokenkäkukkamekkosuohiihtäjien kanssa.

[Rob A.]

OK, lets go literal. Literally these make sense in the other language.

Lord there be good, here is not allowed to tobacconize. Outside is permitted to burn!

Armahtakaa minua herra, mutta savustaminen ei ole suvaittua. Ulkosalla siellä on suunniteltuna savualue.

WTF&ÖÖÖ

This is a bit difficult...

OK here's is what I think it should have been...

Armahtakaa minua herra, mutta tupakointi ei ole suvaittua. Ulkosalla siellä on suunniteltuna tupakointi alue.

"Have mercy on me, Lord, but smoking is not permitted. Outside there is a designed smoking area."

Literally:

"Have mercy on me, Lord...[this first part is straightforward]....but smoking..[the verb, "savustaa" has been changed into a noun]...is not permitted...[I think "suvaittua" is a passive past participle in the partitive case...which makes sense to me].... At-outside is there a designed ...["suunniteltuna" seems to be a passive past participle, with an essive ending...???...but I can't figure out what purpose such an ending would be serving... ]...smoking area...[in the nominative case...part of a copular clause.]".....

And this is why machine translations will never really work.....in most English speaking countries, there aren't too many people still smoking food, but I suppose it's still part of Finnish culture, and so context is important....

[Pursuivant]

Ah, Rob. They were literal translations.

Lord=herra there=siellä be=olkaa good=hyvä, here=täällä is not=ei ole allowed=sallittu to tobacconize=tupakoida. Outside=ulkona is permitted=saa to burn=polttaa!
Herra siellä, olkaa hyvä, täällä ei saa tupakoida. Ulkona saa polttaa!


Armahtakaa=excuse minua=me herra=sir, mutta=but savustaminen=smoking ei ole=is not suvaittua=alllowed. Siellä on= there is outside suunniteltuna=designated savualue =smoking area ulkosala =outside.

Excuse me, sir, but smoking is not allowed. There is a designated smoking area outside.

[Rob A.]

Ah, Rob. They were literal translations.

Lord=herra there=siellä be=olkaa good=hyvä, here=täällä is not=ei ole allowed=sallittu to tobacconize=tupakoida. Outside=ulkona is permitted=saa to burn=polttaa!
Herra siellä, olkaa hyvä, täällä ei saa tupakoida. Ulkona saa polttaa!


Armahtakaa=excuse minua=me herra=sir, mutta=but savustaminen=smoking ei ole=is not suvaittua=alllowed. Siellä on= there is outside suunniteltuna=designated savualue =smoking area ulkosala =outside.

Excuse me, sir, but smoking is not allowed. There is a designated smoking area outside.

Ha!!....you caught me!!!... I was so focussed on the distinction between "savustaminen" and "tupakointi"...I somehow just assumed the first part was merely "colourful" language....

And this is also a big part of the reason that humour often just doesn't translate well...foreign speakers of a language often take everything literally .... Not unusual at all for me to have to explain a joke to a non-native speaker....sometimes even when they've been speaking English for years.... Heck, sometimes the jokes can be so subtle even native English speakers from other areas won't understand.... Part the reason I think why it's difficult for immigrants to fully intergrate into a new culture....they simply don't have a lot of the "cultural reference points" that the locals have been accumulating for years..... And, of course, it tends to get a bit tiresome having to "spoonfeed"...explain everything to....adults....

I'm still curious, though, about the role being played in this sentence by the word, "suunniteltuna"...."suunniteltu" seems to be a passive past participle with the meaning of, "planned, "designed" or, I guess, "designated"....but why the "-na" suffix??....it seems to be an essive case ending, but what is it telling me...??...