Dreaming about Finland...

[haahatus]

How do you know ? Ever visited?

Every place I have been to was entirely different than I imagined. Not necessary worse or better but just different. If you have never visited or did just a short tourist tour I would find that scary because I would know everything would be sligtly different than I imagined.

[Rahela-Hanna]

Of course! I've been there twice. For about two months at a time, each time I went. I was there just this past summer, actually.

Yo, what do those Finns do for Christmas anyway? I'm not really sure, myself; people've just told me that truly Finnish Christmases are great.

[zedkoman]

...

[haahatus]

I don't think that has anything to do with being indo-european or not. Remember Urdu , Iranian , Hindi are all indo-european languages. I don't think indo european culture has too much to do with today. Is there an indo-european culture at all? I think the things you mention have causes far more recent than anything ancient . Especially when Finland got a high dose of indo european culture forced in the 12 century. I think you will find the same variations amogn real indo-european cultures also.

Besides christianity which has influenced much of european culture is not an entirely indo-european invention or totally non indo-european. (why I say this in this way is
http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publ ... ianity.htm )

[Rahela-Hanna]

Hi hanna

If going to Finland is too big a step, you should try those places in the USA that most resemble Finland, which by coincidence have a large amount of Finnish descendants. I spent my summer along the coast of Maine in towns like Rockland, Camden, Ellsworth, and Machias. There are are many people of Finnish descent there, but also if you go out west to the UP (around Houghton) in Michigan or northern Minnesota, these places have that same feeling that you get in Finland, and you don't have to travel 4000 miles to experience that cleanliness and to be in a world where most people are WASPs.

Alot of what some people say about Finland is true. Finns are not indo-european. I have lived here off and on since 2001 and can tell you that there ideas about sex, male-female relationships, society, race and nation, is light years from what you find in the US. In the end your interactions with Finns in Finland is what will make your stay here enjoyable or not. Helsinki might be cute with its tram and cobble stone streets, the honesty and directness of Finns might be refreshing, but you still have to overcome the hurdles that all foreigners have in Finland, and that is showing that your existence in Finland and your contribution to Finnish society is importand and that you belong. Learning Finnish and to a much lesser extent Swedish is key to really beginning to unlock the mysteries of the country and that will take years of diligent effort.

Yes...after I learn a bit better Finnish, I would really like to try and take some Swedish classes, because I think that Swedish is an extremley beautiful language. I already speak a little. With a Russian accent, I'm told constantly, but I don't know how that is. Maybe it's because there are so many Russian/Moldovan/Romanian/Ubekestani people living in my community, that I speak English with a very Russian accent as well? I speak with a very hick-Russian accent when I speak English---meaning that I roll all my R's, but say "thing" like "thang." Very real O Brother, Where art Thou? talk.

[Mark I.]

Finns are not indo-european.

Correction: *Finnish* is not indo-european.

[Rahela-Hanna]

*nods*

[Nukkepöksy]

I don't think that has anything to do with being indo-european or not. Remember Urdu , Iranian , Hindi are all indo-european languages. I don't think indo european culture has too much to do with today. Is there an indo-european culture at all? I think the things you mention have causes far more recent than anything ancient . Especially when Finland got a high dose of indo european culture forced in the 12 century. I think you will find the same variations amogn real indo-european cultures also.

Besides christianity which has influenced much of european culture is not an entirely indo-european invention or totally non indo-european. (why I say this in this way is
http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publ ... ianity.htm )

There is obviously not such a thing as indo-european culture. I do think, however that Finland has created its own unique culture, but still owes most of its culture/philosphies to Scandinavian, Russian and european models. For example, German idealist philosophy was the predominant philosophy in Scandinavia (especially Norway and Finland) in the 19th century. This is because Norway (1814) and Finland (1809) were brand new independent nations (well, finland wasn't quite there YET but when Russia made Finland an autonomous grand duchy in 1809 finnish language, literature and identity were being recognized for the first time ever) and both countries were in the process of defining their national identities for the first time. Sweden and Denmark, on the other hand, could fall back on their old traditions and identities.
Lutheranism, of course, has always played a huge part in the identities of the Scandinavian countries. While they may not be overly religious, many of the Lutheran religious ideals are engrained in the scandinavian culture, in my opinion. For example, I think this is where Finns owe their "accept the life you're handed" philosophy. Lutherans believed that God handed you the life you live, whether it be rich or poor, and one should be humble and thankful of that life no matter what. What is most important, is that one should never question one's social status. The rich are rich because God wants them to be, and the poor likewise. Well, that was the old way of thinking before this idea was challenged by philosophers and scholars at the beginning of the 18th century. Sure the Finns have sisu, but at the same time, they seem more accepting (or even fatalist) when it comes to the hands they're dealt in life. I once heard a saying that went something like "A finn is only satisfied when he's suffering", or something like that. I guess you can't have Sisu, unless you first have an oppressor.
So anyway, i could go on forever about where, what and how I think Finnish culture is defined, but my point is that I think they owe most of their identity to recent occurences, not because their blood or language isn't 'indo-european'. Plus, even the Finnish language, while it is based on Finno-Ugric langs, has had so much european, swedish and germanic influence (vocabulary AND grammar) that its "finno-ugricness" is hardly noticeable now. This is for the linguistic experts to debate, however. I'm just a silly student of finnish studies with my silly opinions.

wow i must be bored to write all that.

[Nukkepöksy]

Finns are not indo-european.

Correction: *Finnish* is not indo-european.

the "blood" of Finns is still under debate. There is and is not indo-european DNA. I guess Finns have been living where they're living for a while.

Sami blood is under debate too. Some articles i read say that Sami are definitely indo-european. Others say that they are not. We need more info on this subject before we can have "corrections" and debates. I doubt any of us is an expert in this field.

[Mark I.]

Sami genetic roots are much more a mystery, than Finnish genetic roots. For example:

http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/geeneng.html

What articles claim that Sami are defenetly indo-european?

Nukkepöksy, I have taken a liberty to correct each time I see people mixing up languages and genetics. As to your "We need more info on this subject before we can have "corrections" and debates", perhaps you should have changed "we" to "I". (Note: don't take this as an attack or such. We don't need a flame war here.)

There's been so much debate and discussion about the subject allready years ago, that I'm actually tired of it. I'm sure anyone interested on the subject is able to use google.

[Nukkepöksy]

Nukkepöksy, I have taken a liberty to correct each time I see people mixing up languages and genetics. As to your "We need more info on this subject before we can have "corrections" and debates", perhaps you should have changed "we" to "I". (Note: don't take this as an attack or such. We don't need a flame war here.)

my point in making reference to your correction is that INHO we ... sorry.. you shouldn't be making corrections on subjects that are still under debate. IE saying that no, it's not FINNS that are not indo-european, it's FINNISH. This is why i mentioned the 'indo-europeanness' of both the language and DNA are still under debate. And yes, sorry i have to stick with "we" and not "i", regarding this matter.

There's been so much debate and discussion about the subject allready years ago, that I'm actually tired of it. I'm sure anyone interested on the subject is able to use google.

couldn't agree with you more.

[llewellyn]

There's been so much debate and discussion about the subject allready years ago, that I'm actually tired of it. I'm sure anyone interested on the subject is able to use google.

I must confess I'm quite amused by this current brutal battle between professor Wiik and his linguist critics. We still seem to think in quite (literally) racist terms, as this purely academic question of our genetic/cultural roots would not really rouse such heated feelings otherwise. Nukkepöksy's clarification makes quite a bit of sense to me - I would say that there are three clearly separate issues in the discussion: genetics, language and culture. Their interaction is very complex and not clear cut, and much of the prehistoric data will probably remain for ever out of our reach.

[haahatus]

Iranian of course being Farsi

I looked to this because of the other discussion a while ago. Googling for answers about the origin and classification of Finns will not result for a layman getting a clear answer for any layman imho

Why? First the results are awful pages looking to be out of date and not giving any clear answers , hobbyist pages , blood and honour discussions whether finns are white enough , charts which are hard to interpret not giving a clear answer and overly scientific pdf files too complicated to understand and usually not about the origin of various groups but about genetic diseases or whatever .

I wait for the day when a clear and good answer with short explanations and summary is written available online so discussion in loops is not necessary. Maybe the final answer will come faster than the male anti-baby pill

[Rahela-Hanna]

Help!

[bonduto]

i think finland is an okay place not so great and not bad either.i'm aware the weather can get really cold but i guess that has its positives too