finland needs workers

[Hee]

And of course language learning should not be compulsory

Why not make it compulsory?
Why should anyone be allowed to get away with not learning a language when they have permanent residence? For their sake and for the sake of the native Finns who have to put up with having them in their country they should be forced to at least do a course in basic/survival Finnish.

[Hank W.]

I recall there being law that forbids preferential treatment in hiring.

Well, don't know if they still are doing it, but in the 1990's when I was applying to different schools they gave out tit&nut points. If a girl was applying to say engineering or a guy to nursing they got extra points when the government was trying to get rid of the "mens jobs" and "womens jobs" forming, as an incentive to go study cross the gender lines so to speak....

So, maybe foreigners should be getting brownie points...
/get me coat

[Hank W.]

For their sake and for the sake of the native Finns who have to put up with having them in their country they should be forced to at least do a course in basic/survival Finnish.

Maybe even that 1000 words to start with. It would help entering the working life if you're "straight off Ryanair"... who was it now got a job at a bar after learning how to count to a hundred?

[Tiwaz]

Wow, it seems you missed my point entirely. Point is not who is lazy or who goes to Kela. Point is, of course people need to learn the language, but if Finland needs workers, Finland needs to provide language and assimilation programs for this influx of people. What they have now does not cut it, it isn't sufficient, and it is of poor quality. Of course I don't expect people to provide service in broken English and part Finnish. Services sector needs workers, but the workers have to have a reason to come, and to stay, and if they don't have a proven way to assimilate and get language learning support, they will go elsewhere, and there will be plenty of unfilled vacancies.

And from what we read here, people are SO enthusiastic about learning finnish.
So what would be way for us to use? How would potentially less than motivated worker be assimilated and helped learn language most effectively?

Reality is that finnish is not closely related to any EU language with exception of estonian. It means learning is going to be difficult. Which may in turn help reduce motivation of immigrant to learn.

Learning languages is inside your head. You have to WANT to learn to be able to learn effectively. Instead even in this forum we see people often ask "how can I get job without finnish".

Is there room for improvement in language courses? Most likely. But much of problem is also in immigrant end. I know I had serious problems learning swedish... English was a breeze because I wanted to understand what was going on in my computergame instead of trial and error. And because I continuously dealt with english on voluntary basis. Most of my english I learned outside school classroom. Swedish, which I learned inside classroom... Nah. Better not go there.

Perhaps some fluent immigrants in this forum could tell us how they learned the language. What methods they used and how long it took.

What is especially infuriating is ads in foreign trade and economy magazines, where Finland places ads telling that this is some kind of haven where all companies are hiring foreign workers, and something about "Finns speak such good English it will be an easy transition". They don't really list requirements, and they don't bother to pull from the pool of currently docile immigrants they already have here. That's like a cargo plane at an airstrip, unloading the cargo onto the tarmac, and rather than moving it somewhere, more planes bringing more cargo that is simply piling up on the runway. NOT very efficient.

To be honest, I blame idiot who moves in based on ads in paper without doing any groundwork to figure out where (s)he is moving, what (s)he needs and so forth.

And, in my experience, FRENCH and OTHER EU papers are NOT accepted, when I go down the list of my German and French friends, whose university degrees and experience are snubbed as not being up to the "Finnish standard," and they (Opetus Hallitus, sorry if I misspelled) invite you to take some supplemental courses at lovely Helsinki University. I am sure some are accepted, but you have to understand that there are many that are not, and this is at the government level that this pervasive arrogance exists, and actually, the EU has verbally popped Finland on the wrist a few times for this kind of institutional discrimination, and other EU contradictions (I believe cars and tax on cars issues) but change is slow.

Well, I have to ask... Do french or german certificates include all studies essential in Finland?

I think there might still be some problems in this system, namely that somewhere you get papers for X with far lower requirement than elsewhere. Flat out accepting such certificates and exchanging them to finnish equivalent which might require more would be counterproductive don't you think?

Not claiming that this is necessarily case, but I see it as possibility.

[sammy]

And of course language learning should not be compulsory

Why not make it compulsory?
Why should anyone be allowed to get away with not learning a language when they have permanent residence? For their sake and for the sake of the native Finns who have to put up with having them in their country they should be forced to at least do a course in basic/survival Finnish.

Well, I wouldn't phrase it quite like that - phrases like "putting up with foreigners" already seem to reflect a bad attitude towards immigration IMO. Anyway, just as you can not "force" someone to integrate, or you can't "force" person or group X to socialise with person or group Y, similarly I do not think that making something like language learning compulsory is a good idea at the end of the day - positive incentives would perhaps work better. Anyway, I'd wager that most of those immigrants who are planning to stay here do realise it themselves that learning Finnish is a sensible idea EVEN IF they work in a company where the working language is English; however as I've already mentioned earlier in this thread the problem is that some immigrants may by necessity rank language learning lower in their goals than finding a job & getting by financially (and that is perhaps exactly why we do get these questions about "jobs requiring no Finnish"...)

Speaking of English, it would actually be quite interesting to know what percentage of the skilled and qualified immigrants coming to Finland have insufficient or non-existent English skills? How do they cope?

[rinso]

Perhaps some fluent immigrants in this forum could tell us how they learned the language. What methods they used and how long it took.

Not "fluent, but I can manage in everyday life. Since the closest course was 80 km away, I did most of it myself. But the big boost came by frequent contact with Fins. Although in the beginning it was a problem. If I did not understood someone, they started to repeat things in a more complicated way (and this being Savo, also much louder ). When they understood my problem, they started talking slower and more simple. That helped a lot.

[rinso]

Well, I have to ask... Do french or german certificates include all studies essential in Finland?

I think there might still be some problems in this system, namely that somewhere you get papers for X with far lower requirement than elsewhere. Flat out accepting such certificates and exchanging them to finnish equivalent which might require more would be counterproductive don't you think?

My wife is a Finnish vet, but to be able to work in the Netherlands, she had to take an additional course. It was the same for a Dutch vet who wanted to work in Finland. Although the level is (more or less) the same, you're lacking the country specific parts.

[shrecher]

There is "free" movement to come, nobody says we have to hire them.

You underestimate it. Here is a lots of people working. Like 1900 berry pickers from Thai. People work here in construction, IT, trade, people have business here. There are workers from all EU countries. Strangely, why don't you see it?! Basically, all major IT companies have English as office language, do you think it is just for fun?

[Tiwaz]

Ah, the berry pickers. Yes, that is huge job with lots of hours around the year...

Or rather, it is pisspoor paid seasonal job lasting for maybe month or two if you are lucky and thus mainly field of poor students or foreigners from poor countries who get visa to pick berries. They live extremely crudely to be able to bring in finnish terms pitiful amount of money which turns into relative fortune in their poor country.

Prime example of foreign workforce, not.

Next, construction and IT are exceptions not rules. Both are small niche jobs which offer lots of "out of eyes" positions to hide immigrants in. Or do you think polish construction worker has much contact with client?

Most jobs tend to require some customer contact, effectively meaning that person not speaking finnish is useless. All such people would repeatedly get is request to get someone finnish speaking.

And apparently you still do not grasp that those few IT companies are small representatives of SMALL NICHE. They do not represent finnish society and worklife. They do not even represent their own field because most of IT field is not huge companies but small to medium sized. How many of those you think has english as office language?

Why you are so stubborn not to realise that your examples are rare exceptions instead of general rule? Yes, there are exeptions. No, they are not common, if they were they wouldn't be exceptions.

[shrecher]

But the sooner you understand that learning Finnish (or Swedish, depends a bit on the area) is more or less the ONLY key to real integration

First, what do you mean under integration? Conduct business or be hired here the English is enough. I can also admit English is enough to contact the officials (vero, kela, etc).
And, I'm not looking for more. Why if I come here to work should seek for real integration, understanding local culure? I'm not going to merry on local or be elected. I just work, we both (me and my employer) are very satisfied on each other.

Second. I believe the Finnish state is over-satisfied: I pay tax, my kids possibly stay here and will work here. I believe the Finnish state would be happy to attract more people like me: they don't need to spend money on childhood care, school, University master degree, post-grad study, no need to sponsor post-graduate practice. Foreign workers come here as "ready-to-use". Why Finnish state shouldn't love guest workers, even we don't speak Finnish? Please answer!

[Tiwaz]

But the sooner you understand that learning Finnish (or Swedish, depends a bit on the area) is more or less the ONLY key to real integration

First, what do you mean under integration? Conduct business or be hired here the English is enough. I can also admit English is enough to contact the officials (vero, kela, etc).
And, I'm not looking for more. Why if I come here to work should seek for real integration, understanding local culure? I'm not going to merry on local or be elected. I just work, we both (me and my employer) are very satisfied on each other.

Second. I believe the Finnish state is over-satisfied: I pay tax, my kids possibly stay here and will work here. I believe the Finnish state would be happy to attract more people like me: they don't need to spend money on childhood care, school, University master degree, post-grad study, no need to sponsor post-graduate practice. Foreign workers come here as "ready-to-use". Why Finnish state shouldn't love guest workers, even we don't speak Finnish? Please answer!

Because you are source of future trouble.

For reference, look at Germany and gastarbeiters from Turkey.

They never integrated, now they and their offspring are problem.
France, immigrants and their offspring without proper integration rioting.


And once more, you have no idea what work in other fields but your little corner is like so stop pretending to be all knowing specialist. You are lucky to work in IT which is rare exception in it's policy of not requiring finnish along with construction.

It is clear you have no f***** clue of what life is outside your bubble since you have even suggested that you could be BUS DRIVER without speaking finnish. In effect perform in job where you have to continuously be in contact with finnish.

Or medical profession. Yeah, that's what Finland needs. Doctors and nurses who can't tell if patient is complaining ulcer or hemorrhoids.

[sinikettu]

Seems that the Minister fro Education reads this board.

http://virtual.finland.fi/stt/showartic ... p=Politics

thursday 24 April..
Sari Sarkomaa (cons), the education minister, told the Finnish News Agency (STT) after the meeting that there are great hopes and a great need for immigrant workers, but shortages in language training opportunities cause problems.

A proper identification of the skills and abilities of immigrants was also deficient.

shrecher..sorry but sooner or later you are going hit a wall where your employer and or work colleagues will not be satisfied with your inability and un- willingness to communicate in Finnish.
Or...
Are you telling me that all of your colleagues are happy to communicate in English?

Or do they chat amongst themselves in Finnish, and exclude you from their social group?

The lonely little petunia in an onion patch...nice!!

(edit to correct date).

[shrecher]

Ah, the berry pickers. Yes, that is huge job with lots of hours around the year...

Or rather, it is pisspoor paid seasonal job lasting for maybe month or two if you are lucky and thus mainly field of poor students or foreigners from poor countries who get visa to pick berries. They live extremely crudely to be able to bring in finnish terms pitiful amount of money which turns into relative fortune in their poor country.

I don't think Finland can find 1900 extra workers, even for low end works.

Next, construction and IT are exceptions not rules. Both are small niche jobs which ...

well, our whole life is exception, all jobs are small niches.

Most jobs tend to require some customer contact, effectively meaning that person not speaking finnish is useless. All such people would repeatedly get is request to get someone finnish speaking.

I can, see you are not a manager
A good manager as soon as he/she has full hand of good workers immediately finds the utilization for them. Not necessary a front end tasks, but built-up the competence center. Good managed companies are always utilizing any resource what they have.

[Tiwaz]

I don't think Finland can find 1900 extra workers, even for low end works.

Finland could find, but nobody but students and poor foreigners do that job because it pays so pitifully small amount of money. Berry picking is SEASONAL job of very short duration and low wage. It is not career.

well, our whole life is exception, all jobs are small niches.

And some niches are smaller than others.

I can, see you are not a manager
A good manager as soon as he/she has full hand of good workers immediately finds the utilization for them. Not necessary a front end tasks, but built-up the competence center. Good managed companies are always utilizing any resource what they have.

I see you are not manager either.

In Finland, hiring useless workforce for which there is no need is economical suicide. They cost a lot and if they are not producing service... They are creating deficit.

If there isn't back office worker needed, hiring one just because there is one available is act of an idiot. You just added salary, social security payments and huge list of other payments to your expenditures to get someone sit in back office rolling their thumbs.


So tell me, are all managers in Finland incompetent since they do not hire all these wonderworker immigrants or are you just guy who is talking out of his a** without realisation that his own little bubble does not represent huge world around it?

[sinikettu]

I can, see you are not a manager
A good manager as soon as he/she has full hand of good workers immediately finds the utilization for them. Not necessary a front end tasks, but built-up the competence center. Good managed companies are always utilizing any resource what they have.

You now being a patronising Rshole..
I am a Senior Manager and what Tiwas wrote is correct, but what you write is close to out dated old impractical text book bull shiit...

I have just come from a meeting at Nokia, there was one person in that meeting who could not understand English so we spoke Finnish.
What would you have done if you were in that meeting?
If Nokia had then requested to your boss that they would prefer Finnish speakers to handle their account..what then? How would he Utilise you?