Social Class

[Rob A.]

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[Rob A.]

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[littlefrank]

The "test" I use is the old "What's In This For Me" test.....if I think there's something in it for me, then I'll go along with it, or at least "pay lip service" to it...if not then I just do my best to avoid it....

I react differently in 'social occasions' when I can't avoid them, I tell people I'm a labourer or something like that, that get's rid of the social climbers and the snobs and leaves me talking to a few of people who either have felt socially obliged to talk to me, want to know if I'll dig their garden, or who are genuinely interested in talking to me, i.e. they stayed long enough and started talking about books, politics... In case some people think I have a 'chip' on my shoulder or I am resentful of wealth, I'll add that I have got friends who went to public school whom I have known for more years than I care to remember, I am not envious of their family wealth, they would be surprised if I was.

Not that I have much against people who do use it to their advantage, that is how our society operates I just do not want to be a part of it.

The most snobbish non Brit's I've met were from Australia, there was total silence at the table when I said I was a kitchen porter.

[sinikala]

on earth has a class system is wrong, because of the reasons I outlined above i.e. matriarchal, patriarchal and societies governed by 'elders' are not class based.

Go on then, give me 1 example each of a decent sized matriarchy, patriarchy or elder governed society which didn´t have a class system.

Not that I have much against people who do use it to their advantage, that is how our society operates I just do not want to be a part of it.

I have no problem with the existence of a class system. I just disagree when folk say that Finland doesn´t have one, when clearly it does.

Back to the elites... I remember Hank listing a few of the old-Finnish families on here a few years ago .... one example... anyone who has even a passing knowledge of 20th century Finnish art & design will have heard of Maire Gullichsen, thogh she´s been dead for some time she was one of the founders of Artek... her son is / was a well known architect. Anyone else been to Villa Mairea? All done with the fortunes of the Ahlström family.. dating back to the 1850s. And it´s still in their family if I understood correctly.

It's whether Finland does or does not have a class system.

People have usually friends from all kind of phases of life. And particularly those from childhood and teenage years can be whatever "class" and nobody thinks about it. Also inside families some are hairdressers and plumbers, some are professors and doctors. All the same class, all work matters. Also my brother was the same "class" as me. He was a homeless derelict alcoholic.

You miss the point. In your family there are hairdressers, plumbers, maybe a professor or a doctor... but in the families higher up the social scale they have politicians, bankers, lawyers, professors, doctors ... and maybe a hairdresser.

Who you mix with in your childhood ... usually depends where oyu go to school, but mostly where you live.. you play with other kids in the neighbourhood... if you live in Kauniainen, you´ll play with kids higher up the social scale than if you live in "Mogadishu Avenue" .. innit?

[littlefrank]

on earth has a class system is wrong, because of the reasons I outlined above i.e. matriarchal, patriarchal and societies governed by 'elders' are not class based.

Go on then, give me 1 example each of a decent sized matriarchy, patriarchy or elder governed society which didn´t have a class system.

Sinikala you are changing the original statement i.e. 'every society on earth has a class system' not a 'decent sized society', Many indigenous people of Africa, Australia and the America's, would not have/or for the few remaining peoples that exist would not understand the concept of 'class' because it would not have existed in their communities, nor would 'class' be an appropriate term for their societies even if a formal hierarchy existed, it would indeed be difficult to point out a decent sized matriarchal, patriarchal or elder governed society which didn't have a class system, because we Europeans have wiped out most of them and only the remnants and a few isolated societies exist, while a few, like those in Brazil are being forced to change because of commercial pressures.

I'll risk the wrath of Saxonmad and provide a quote

'Anthropologists have found that social stratification is not the standard among all societies. John Gowdy writes, "Assumptions about human behaviour that members of market societies believe to be universal, that humans are naturally competitive and acquisitive, and that social stratification is natural, do not apply to many hunter-gatherer peoples." Non-stratified egalitarian or acephalous ("headless") societies exist which have little or no concept of social hierarchy, political or economic status, class, or even permanent leadership.'

Besides there are no simplistic answers to the question of class, it is not just about money, or whether someone 'made good' and become a doctor, it's not just about hierarchy ,culture or education it's a combination of all these things. But Finland has a class system no matter how fluid that may seem.

[llewellyn]

No one would disagree that Finland and the other Nordics have a less rigid class system...And I think we would all agree that social mobility is easy here.

That is not the point though...It's whether Finland does or does not have a class system.

Well, surely it does though I would be hard put to describe it. I would notice whether a person is academically educated or well read and whether or not he/she is wealthy or not. But one would most easily notice extremes of these categories and there would be various kinds of combinations of them. And of course I would notice where they come from in Finland. I guess there just wouldn't be a certain universality to it that there seems to be in England, things would be more fluid and people are less conscious of their (and others') precise position in what they most probably would not call the class system. (It is obviously such a strange concept that it makes me lose my English syntax...)

[mrjimsfc]

I think a common theme is showing up here in that education and type of education tends to distinguish different classes in any population (including Finland). Not surprising really.

[biscayne]

Totally agree with Sinikala. Saying there are no "social classes" in Finland, or that Finland is a "classless" society is rubbish. It's just like anywhere else I've ever lived, you have class distinctions in terms of neighbourhoods, education and family background. I've often heard silly statements like the famous one about the Professor who drank with the cleaner, and how "sauna reduces everyone to the same class" etc. Might be true in a few cases here and there, but in general people of similar educational backgrounds live in the same neighbourhoods and socialise with each other just as they do anywhere else. The farther out into the countryside you go, it does change a bit, as you will have people who have lived there for generations alongside newcomers who have bought big plots and built big houses, but Hki/Espoo suburbs are highly class differentiated. I freely admit that I bought in Kaunianen 'cos it had a reputation of being trouble-free, I had the money and didn't want to deal with scangers, thats just the truth, bite me.............

I also notice that Finns are big into insisting on their full academic title being used which is not always the case in for example english-speaking countries where insisting on that is considered a snobbish affectation. If I was working in Ireland/UK/AUS/USA and insisted on people addressing me with an academic title, they would just take the p++s out of me.

[EP]

I also notice that Finns are big into insisting on their full academic title

Really? Are you sure? Because I have never heard anything like that, and people usually find the German title dropping quite funny.

[Karhunkoski]

I also notice that Finns are big into insisting on their full academic title

Really? Are you sure? Because I have never heard anything like that, and people usually find the German title dropping quite funny.

To be honest, perhaps people don't insist on their "full academic title", but there is certainly something of an obsession with academic pigeon-holing. People often feel compelled to state whether someone was an "insönööri" or an "argronomi", etc, often smiling smugly as they talk of a relative, offspring, etc.... have you noticed that EP?

[EP]

People often feel compelled to state whether someone was an "insönööri" or an "argronomi", etc, often smiling smugly as they talk of a relative, offspring, etc.... have you noticed that EP?

Sure, but those people are usually 80. Their frame of mind is from the time when it was not possible for everybody to get further education. Like I said earlier, government guaranteed study loans came in 1960´s and study money in 1970´s. Those opened higher education doors to everybody. Everybody with even half a brain and regardless of your parents "class" or money.

Education has always been valued in Finland. Even in times when child labour was still used the factory patrons had to put up schools for their child labourers.

[Pursuivant]

Dunno, I think the "academic title" or "profession" is evident (esp. with older people) if you look at the phone book or someones business card. Theres a generation change so the "letters don't impress".... its not like in Germany where everyone is Doktor Frankenstein

[littlefrank]

I do wish people would stop going on about education and class, class is more than just being able to go to university. New Universities were built to educate the masses all over the world during the 60's and 70's, the reason is obvious we were entering a new technological age, countries were in desperate need of engineers, scientists, doctors, teachers and other professionals, so they created education factories to mass produce them. Of course older people used their titles when they went through tertiary education, they were in a minority and they would have been addressed has Doctor or whatever, but they would also know their place in the pecking order, they would kowtow to the elite. Of course once they started churning out these 'professionals' then obviously their status was diluted but they still retained their position within the extended middle class. Titles would also be dropped during the 60's and 70's in Finland because of it's special relationship with the Soviet Union and the fact that many students going through the education system were members of or supporters of the communist party. Just as students in other parts of the world became radical lefties, Weathermen or members of the Red Brigades.

Whenever class is being discussed I'm always reminded of a quote from that other 'classless' society America. John Steinbeck talked about when he was painting a barn with the families handyman, they ran out of paint so Steinbeck asked the man to go into town and get some more paint, the man said he would have to get changed first, when asked why, he said something like 'Only wealthy people can afford to go into town dressed like this'

[Pursuivant]

Whenever class is being discussed I'm always reminded of a quote from that other 'classless' society America. John Steinbeck talked about when he was painting a barn with the families handyman, they ran out of paint so Steinbeck asked the man to go into town and get some more paint, the man said he would have to get changed first, when asked why, he said something like 'Only wealthy people can afford to go into town dressed like this'

Ah, that sounds like my in-laws and ex-missus "keeping up appearances" like hyacinth in a bucket. Country folks "change to church-going-clothes" when going to town whereas I just grab my wallet and go buy the three nails I need in my dungarees when I'm at the cottage. Then again I wear a pair of "reino" in my local pub but dress up going "into town" that is Helsinki Centre...

[littlefrank]

When I was young, older working class people use to dress up in suits to go out , the middle class use to dress down, I got kicked out at 17 because after an argument with my dad I did go out in a scruffy old leather jacket and dirty jeans on a Sunday, rebel without a bath or a suit.