Residence permits

[daryl]

...poor Canadian great great great grandson of a sonofabitch from Czarist Finland decides to drop everything and accept that dodgy job offer in the "old country"

I'm beginning to sound like a broken gramophone record... but as this discussion is going round in circles anyway - would anyone know how many such returnees from Canada / US there are annually to Finland? My interest lies in finding out whether it is actually realistic to assume that any such great-great-grandsons (or daughters) would be aching to come here only on the grounds that it's allowed by the returnee policy? (unless they're abusive ba$tards like the guy you told us about )

I mean, what would be their motive...? If their parents and parents' parents (and their parents' parents' parents) have already lived in Canada / US all their lives, isn't that "home" so to speak? Erm... welcome, if you ask me, but... why? And that's the reason I'l like to know a bit about the annual returnee figures.

The information that you seek could be extracted by the Directorate of Immigration based on the notorious status code system that was used in association with the old Aliens Act. This would require cross-matching of citizenship of origin with the particular status code used on returnee residence permits.

You are welcome to ask them. Let us know how quickly you receive an answer and how helpful the answer was.

Statistics have generally been kept separately on returnees from the former USSR, so if you can cross-reference this with the total figures, then you'll get a result for the "rest of the world" category.

I don't know if you've seen Jouni Korkiasaari's estimate of the number of people who are eligible for privileges based on ancestry, but you'll find it here:

http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/db/stat/img/ff_01.gif

Come to think of it, Jouni may be willing to answer your question or to tell you who can. He seemed a nice, approachable guy when I met him some years ago.

http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/db/sta ... p?artid=18

Your remark about the motive of a returnee exposes the peculiar perversity of the expression "returnee" (and corresponding terms such as inkerinsuomalainen) that are used to describe this kind of immigration. The expression implies that it is possible to "return" to a place where you have never lived.

Ask yourself what, precisely, is returning when I go to the place in Belarus where my paternal grandmother was born (she left at the age of about 8 years, I have been told - and she died when I was still a baby). The only answer I can give you is "certain DNA patterns".

Motivation to "return"? None whatsoever. On the other hand, of course, if someone gives me a free pass to a bolthole somewhere out of reach of the long arm of the law, or a new base to set up nefarious activities, then I might be tempted to embark on a life of crime.

Look at this this way and you might see that the system is actually customised for the abusive ba$tards of whom you speak.

daryl

[sammy]

The information that you seek could be extracted by the Directorate of Immigration based on the notorious status code system that was used in association with the old Aliens Act. This would require cross-matching of citizenship of origin with the particular status code used on returnee residence permits.

You are welcome to ask them. Let us know how quickly you receive an answer and how helpful the answer was.

Statistics have generally been kept separately on returnees from the former USSR, so if you can cross-reference this with the total figures, then you'll get a result for the "rest of the world" category.

I don't know if you've seen Jouni Korkiasaari's estimate of the number of people who are eligible for privileges based on ancestry, but you'll find it here:

http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/db/stat/img/ff_01.gif

Come to think of it, Jouni may be willing to answer your question or to tell you who can. He seemed a nice, approachable guy when I met him some years ago.

http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/db/sta ... p?artid=18

Your remark about the motive of a returnee exposes the peculiar perversity of the expression "returnee" (and corresponding terms such as inkerinsuomalainen) that are used to describe this kind of immigration. The expression implies that it is possible to "return" to a place where you have never lived.

Ask yourself what, precisely, is returning when I go to the place in Belarus where my paternal grandmother was born (she left at the age of about 8 years, I have been told - and she died when I was still a baby). The only answer I can give you is "certain DNA patterns".

Motivation to "return"? None whatsoever. On the other hand, of course, if someone gives me a free pass to a bolthole somewhere out of reach of the long arm of the law, or a new base to set up nefarious activities, then I might be tempted to embark on a life of crime.

Look at this this way and you might see that the system is actually customised for the abusive ba$tards of whom you speak.

daryl

Daryl,

Thanks for the stats & the migration institute link, I might as well ask - if I do, i'll let you know.

Otherwise, although I'm not perverse enough to believe that the system was created for the abusive ba$tards, it was indeed this aspect of the matter I was thinking of. I for one might consider myself to be a Carelian "returnee", but "going back to where I've never lived" has never really seemed to be an enticing option to me - principally because I very much feel that my "home" is here in Finland. (Let it however be said that it is not in all respects a fair comparison between me and a, say, an Ingrian returnee - if we look at it from an economic point of view.)

A life of crime... well, yes, it may tempt certain kind of people but then again I wouldn't see that as a "problem" in this respect. Native Finns can peddle with crime easily enough as well, and predicting beforehand whether any given individual -a returnee or a native- is inclined towards that sort of hilarious hobbies might be rather an Orwellian system in itself... (as if we haven't enough of that already )

But yes, it did cross my mind too that the "returnee" policy may leave a door open for such possibilities. Still, it's not always a "fair" world, and anyway I would (at least personally) rather preconceive any "returnees" to have good intentions than consider them a possible threat.

[daryl]

But yes, it did cross my mind too that the "returnee" policy may leave a door open for such possibilities. Still, it's not always a "fair" world, and anyway I would (at least personally) rather preconceive any "returnees" to have good intentions than consider them a possible threat.

Sounds like everything the Russians say about the Tsuhna is true then. They really are gullible fools.

Incidentally, is this the attitude that you have towards all immigrants, or only towards "returnees"?

daryl

[sammy]

Sounds like everything the Russians say about the Tsuhna is true then. They really are gullible fools.

Incidentally, is this the attitude that you have towards all immigrants, or only towards "returnees"?

daryl

Hmm, yes, I'm at least trying to have that attitude towards people in general, not only "returnees" or other immigrants. Possible friend instead of possible foe. The cynic in me says of course that there will always be a percentage of people who, regardless of their origin, will tend to slip towards crime and so on. But I wouldn't readily extend such cynicism to any particular person - let's say it's a question of "innocent until proven quilty" ("ahah", I hear someone say, "you are presuming it's just a matter of time to prove them quilty" - this is a different kind of cynicism and is in the mind of the, erm, beholder)

Don't get me wrong though, I'm no saint or Mother Teresa :lol:

[Hank W.]

The expression implies that it is possible to "return" to a place where you have never lived.

Which makes Finalnd really unique...

Right of aliyah** 1. Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh.**

Oleh's visa 2. (a) Aliyah shall be by oleh's visa.

(b) An oleh's visa shall be granted to every Jew who has expressed his desire to settle in Israel, unless the Minister of Immigration is satisfied that the applicant

(1) is engaged in an activity directed against the Jewish people; or

(2) is likely to endanger public health or the security of the State.

Oleh's certificate 3. (a) A Jew who has come to Israel and subsequent to his arrival has expressed his desire to settle in Israel may, while still in Israel, receive an oleh's certificate.

(b) The restrictions specified in section 2(b) shall apply also to the grant of an oleh's certificate, but a person shall not be regarded as endangering public health on account of an illness contracted after his arrival in Israel.

Residents and persons born in this country

4. Every Jew who has immigrated into this country before the coming into force of this Law, and every Jew who was born in this country, whether before or after the coming into force of this Law, shall be deemed to be a person who has come to this country as an oleh under this Law.

Implementation and regulations

5. The Minister of Immigration is charged with the implementation of this Law and may make regulations as to any matter relating to such implementation and also as to the grant of oleh's visas and oleh's certificates to minors up to the age of 18 years.

DAVID BEN­GURION
Prime Minister

MOSHE SHAPIRA
Minister of Immigration

YOSEF SPRINZAK
Acting President of the State
Chairman of the Knesset

[daryl]

The expression implies that it is possible to "return" to a place where you have never lived.

Which makes Finalnd really unique...

Right of aliyah** 1. Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh.**

Oleh's visa 2. (a) Aliyah shall be by oleh's visa.

(b) An oleh's visa shall be granted to every Jew who has expressed his desire to settle in Israel, unless the Minister of Immigration is satisfied that the applicant

(1) is engaged in an activity directed against the Jewish people; or

(2) is likely to endanger public health or the security of the State.

Oleh's certificate 3. (a) A Jew who has come to Israel and subsequent to his arrival has expressed his desire to settle in Israel may, while still in Israel, receive an oleh's certificate.

(b) The restrictions specified in section 2(b) shall apply also to the grant of an oleh's certificate, but a person shall not be regarded as endangering public health on account of an illness contracted after his arrival in Israel.

Residents and persons born in this country

4. Every Jew who has immigrated into this country before the coming into force of this Law, and every Jew who was born in this country, whether before or after the coming into force of this Law, shall be deemed to be a person who has come to this country as an oleh under this Law.

Implementation and regulations

5. The Minister of Immigration is charged with the implementation of this Law and may make regulations as to any matter relating to such implementation and also as to the grant of oleh's visas and oleh's certificates to minors up to the age of 18 years.

DAVID BEN­GURION
Prime Minister

MOSHE SHAPIRA
Minister of Immigration

YOSEF SPRINZAK
Acting President of the State
Chairman of the Knesset

Sammy noted that this discussion is going round in circles, but even you must note the following points:

A. Being Jewish is as much about religion and culture as it is about ancestry. I doubt that a Roman Catholic priest whose mother was a convert to Judaism would qualify on this basis. An "activity that denies the tenets of their religion" could equally well constitute an "activity directed against the Jewish people".

B. The regulations cited do not grant privileges SOLELY on the basis of ancestry: there is also a negative test involved (the provisos in 2.b).

C. The scope of the discretion of the Minister of Immigration is in no obvious way limited as regards 2.b.1 in particular.

Your underlying perception is correct, however. To the extent that the policy establishes legal privileges based solely on ancestry, the cited provision constitutes racial discrimination in the sense of the UN Convention.

But leaving all of this aside, Israel practices a clearly apartheit policy with respect to immigration and citizenship, which also denies full citizenship to many people who have lived within its territory since before the modern State was even founded. The State of Israel was also a close ally of apartheit South Africa. Is this really the point of reference that you would choose to justify Finland's behaviour?

Why don't YOU have a go at answering the question that I put to sammy: what, precisely, is it that "returns" when "returnees" come to live in a place where their distant ancestors once lived?

My answer is "DNA patterns at most".

By the way, your adopted child example would have been much more effective if the child had been adopted from China AFTER the parent or grandparent left Finland. In this case even a DNA test will not suffice to demonstrate the alleged "connection" to Finland, but the legal privilege would still be extended to the "returnee". This is still racial discrimination under the Convention, as the privilege is still based on (de jure) ancestry.

If you are feeling in an aggressive mood, why don't you ask the Directorate of Immigration to advise you on the "returnee" situation of the adopted African child of an "ulkosuomalainen" who, as an adult, elects to "return" to Finland. Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer other than: "each individual case is decided on its merits".

daryl

[Hank W.]

Naah, I am not feeling aggressive. The UVI has its policies, and I am not that much of a flower-hatted auntie to bother. I just pointed out that "returning somewhere you have never lived" is possible. I mentioned earlier Italian citizenship law as well as the German immigration law that is in a sense "paluumuuttaja" law.

While no doubt the Finnish law has its problems, I think the point I am trying to make here is that Finland isn't having any kind of unique patent in this kind of legislation. In a perfect world we wouldn't need to have immigration laws, but who is perfect.

And trying to achieve perfection when other people will blatantly abuse it is silly as well.