WORK IN FINLAND

[Tiwaz]

Language is very much ultimate expression of culture. If you cannot use it, you are not assimilating.
Taking immigrants is good for economy, making sure they assimilate is more important.
And, as mentioned...
Assimilation starts at language.

First of all, "true assimilation" is not a goal, this is good bonus, but not goal. Nice that my kids born here speak Finnish, have friends among Finns, go local school. The actual goal is earning money, good carrier, have safe and secure life. To reach the goal it is ok to not speak Finnish language. Apparently, as long as I have good savings I can get back to home country at any time and enjoy life there. Or find job in other country with different language. Basically, people like me are guest workers only, no shame in it.

Next, because work and business take a lot of time (9+ hour per day) and effort, it is over my power to spent 2 hours a day for language. If I would do spend time and effort on language something will suffer: job, family. Do I need it? No, if I can nicely get my goal without language, why should I spend time on language?

Wrong point of view.

In view of this society, either you assimilate or you become whining little troublemaker.

And sooner or later you are likely, unless you keep being lucky, to run into situation where your english only policy does not work.

That is when people start to bitch, whine and complain that this is not Kansas and things do not work like they would back at home.
Enoug bitching, whining and complaining unassimilates and you have them starting to become problems. It is seen abroad.

[Hank W.]

That is when people start to bitch, whine and complain that this is not Kansas and things do not work like they would back at home.
Enoug bitching, whining and complaining unassimilates and you have them starting to become problems.

My problem - I need a time machine to go back home to Kekkoslovakia

[shrecher]

In view of this society, either you assimilate or you become whining little troublemaker.
And sooner or later you are likely, unless you keep being lucky, to run into situation where your english only policy does not work.

So far, time shows the opposite. During almost 10 year I have not bumped into such situation when I could not communicate and failed my mission because of that. Even far from Helsinki (50 Km), at such quiet place, there are people speaking English.

And sooner or later you are likely, unless you keep being lucky, to run into situation where your english only policy does not work.
That is when people start to bitch, whine and complain that this is not Kansas and things do not work like they would back at home.

If it is just an incident, well, I can manage it. No problems. If it would become systematic, such as I would loose the job, my life would become gloom of miscommunication, well, in this case, I could alway departure from this country. However, it is unlikely event. Like I wrote earlier, nowadays Finland becomes more and more international, compare with 1998-2000. In Finland more and more IT companies look for English speaking people. I don't feel lack of Finnish it will ever become an issue. Sooner, IT saturation, total outsource, closing down IT factories in Finland as such.

[Hank W.]

You should have been here in 1988 and your socks would be twirling

[raamv]

Spring is here spring is here..
The blossoms of layoffs/recession are coming..as the sub primes and the other kind of primes are getting exposed outta the snow!!

[shrecher]

You should have been here in 1988 and your socks would be twirling

I see no big point in planning of long term future based on very pessimistic forecast. During last 100 year of the history we had WWII, Great Depression and other crises. It can't be really predicted and if it happens unlikely we can do too much about it. The similar applies for ultra optimistic expectations. The planning should be based on more realistic expectation, like moderate grow, internationalization, globalisation of world economy, etc.

Anyway, If we assume your point of view like time as 1988 will come back and "socks would be twirling", then anyway, heavy investment in learning Finnish will not give a big value. It would anyway downturn and unlikely exist a good (any?) job here. Finnish language covers about 5.5 M people, which is not big advantage of knowing it, under the pessimistic condition. It is sooner German or other widely spread language to seek the job abroad.

[Tiwaz]

However, if you intend to live and work longer time within Finland, you will need finnish. If you intend to live in Germany or german speaking country, learning to speak local is logical.

Specially since you will live in situation where at least 8-9 from 10 people you meet on the street speak that language. We are not speaking of importance of finnish abroad, we are speaking of importance of finnish in... Finland!

Same with Uruguay and whateveristan.

It is bloody arrogant and rather stupid to presume that natives living in their nation will always bend over backwards to appease your immigrant ass.
No matter how gilt you think it is.

[Hank W.]

Anyway, If we assume your point of view like time as 1988 will come back and "socks would be twirling", then anyway, heavy investment in learning Finnish will not give a big value. It would anyway downturn and unlikely exist a good (any?) job here.

Ah, no I don't mean the crazy years and the recession. I was referring to your "since 1998 Finland has come more international". If you had been here in 1988, Helsinki in 1998 would have seemed cosmopolitan already. Imagine - fresh fruit in the winter!!!

German or other widely spread language

Oh, end yeah, why do you think parents think the kids should learn foreign "useful" languages? We've been exporting brains long time

[antstar]

However, if you intend to live and work longer time within Finland, you will need finnish. If you intend to live in Germany or german speaking country, learning to speak local is logical.

Specially since you will live in situation where at least 8-9 from 10 people you meet on the street speak that language. We are not speaking of importance of finnish abroad, we are speaking of importance of finnish in... Finland!

Same with Uruguay and whateveristan..

This a very reasonable comment and most people would agree with you!

It is bloody arrogant and rather stupid to presume that natives living in their nation will always bend over backwards to appease your immigrant ass.
No matter how gilt you think it is.

Do you have a twin personality? Do you speak like this to peoples faces?

[Karhunkoski]

It is bloody arrogant and rather stupid to presume that natives living in their nation will always bend over backwards to appease your immigrant ass.
No matter how gilt you think it is.

This is probably a highly accurate representation of the attitude of your average Finn, at least it is in my experience. Deep down, most would be happy if all the immigrants just went back to where they came from. Remember they have had a highly turbulent history, have been kicked around by both neighbours and their independence is a relatively new thing and something of which they are rightly proud. The Finnish language is deep-rooted and strongly linked to the sense of "being Finnish", possibly more so than the English language might be to an Englishman, definitely more so than the English language to a Scot! Finns are a stubborn people and strong marketing of Finnish nationalism has, over many decades, produced generations of people who strongly believe in the capability of Finland to look after itself without interference from the outside, whilst the language itself has proved to be highly successful at preventing assimilation with the world outside (relatively few outsiders ever learn the language to fluency, meaning few outsiders are ever fully accepted into the inner-fold).

Just a few reasons why the Finns won't ever appease our immigrant asses

[shrecher]

It is bloody arrogant and rather stupid to presume that natives living in their nation will always bend over backwards to appease your immigrant ass.
No matter how gilt you think it is.

1. From informal point of view. I have to select between work or study Finnish language. I should point, the result of my work makes the country competitive, creates other working places. Finnish managers don't require Finnish language skill. Almost all major Finnish companies set the English as official language. I guess this is very clear if people arrived here for work, then they effort and contribution are most important for Finnish nation. it far more overweights the language skill.

2. From formal point of view. Finnish language is not required here to live and work. Permanent permit or work permit are granted regardless of Finnish language skill. However, It is required for getting citizenship. Finnish state made its position very clearly.

[sinikala]

Tizwaz, your opinions come across to me at least as being narrow minded, and formed without the benefit of seeing the situation from the immigrant side. From what I understand you are a local, I wonder have you ever spent any time living abroad?

Me, I've lived in three countries other than the country of my birth, totalling 15 years (8 of those in Finland). I'm pretty sure before I retire I'll live in another 2 or 3 countries over the next 30 years. And when I do retire, it'll possibly be to a 4th country.

As much as Finland is out on the edge of the EU, Finns are not so different from other Northern Europeans. You are not the Borg FFS. For many of us assimilation is a non-issue. I'm 100% with shrecher on this topic. Sure, it's nice if it happens along the way, but assimilation is a means to an end, not an aim in itself. I have a Finnish wife, and so a full set of Finnish in-laws, I have Finnish property, I pay several times more Finnish tax than the average Finn.

That my Finnish isn't perfect is irrelevant... neither's my French, Spanish, German... it doesn't stop me having a go.

Assimilation does not start with language, it starts with pulling your own weight. Irrespective of nationality, who gets more respect, the verbose jobless drunk or the silent tax paying worker?

It doesn't matter here that 9 out 10 people in the street speak Finnish as a first language - only 1 in a thousand will ever stop to talk to you... and usually it's an incoherent drunk.

As for whining and bitching... seems to have escaped your notice, but this is a discussion board. If there weren't contrary opinions there wouldn't be much discussion, would there?

It is bloody arrogant and rather stupid to presume that natives living in their nation will always bend over backwards to appease your immigrant ass. No matter how gilt you think it is.

Maybe it's a language issue but much of what you've posted in this thread has an air of resentment about it. Why do you think that immigrants want anybody to bend over backwards? Why do you presume that people think that the sun shines out of their arses?

It seems to me that you (personally) don't really want foreigners here, especially not those who don't have time or cannot be bothered to learn Finnish, or assimilate as you call it. If that's your opinion, have the balls to write it instead of skirting around the issue.

[Tiwaz]

Maybe it's a language issue but much of what you've posted in this thread has an air of resentment about it. Why do you think that immigrants want anybody to bend over backwards? Why do you presume that people think that the sun shines out of their arses?

It seems to me that you (personally) don't really want foreigners here, especially not those who don't have time or cannot be bothered to learn Finnish, or assimilate as you call it. If that's your opinion, have the balls to write it instead of skirting around the issue.

Let's put it this way. Take a long look at complaints aired in this forum...

How many can be squeezed down to this simple message "Things in Finland do not work the way I would want to!"

It may be that you have to pay too much taxes.
Or that people do not talk enough. Or that employers do not employ you.
Or tell you flat out that you need to speak finnish to be employed.
Or that laws require you to apply for residence permit based on job from abroad.
Or that you may be denied residence based on X, Y or Z.

And most come down to "This is not the way _I_ would want things done". As if it is some kind of duty of nation where you immigrate, to provide things in way that is most convenient for you.

That is my problem.

Not immigrants.
Not immigrants asking for help.
But immigrants who get their things messed up and then bitch that things are not the way they think things should be.

[antstar]

[quote="shrecher"]

2. From formal point of view. Finnish language is not required here to live and work. Permanent permit or work permit are granted regardless of Finnish language skill. [quote]

Very true, you don't need to learn Chimpanzee to work in a zoo!

[Hank W.]

Do you have a twin personality? Do you speak like this to peoples faces?

Well, usually we just stare. If the staring doesn't help we start looking for the metal objects. Some extroverts might say "perrrkele" before they embed the metal object. (nupit kaakkoon tulee örinäheviä)

Personally, if I meet someone that deserved to be said that, I'd give him the benefit of hearing the truth before he sits down and gets stared at.