Sinuhe 2011

[AldenG]

Yes, and since the -kse- infinitive form wants a personal ending, you can think of ylistääkseni as "in order for me to praise." That form is often treated as an advanced subject, but it's actually quite simple and once you've spent at most a couple of hours on it, you understand it forever. The personal ending makes -kse..- one of the least ambiguous of all ending groups and thus easiest to recognize. Overuse can sound a little pretentious, but that's harmless -- much better than treating cases and endings carelessly.

Regarding jumaliin, you seem to get(?) that it's governed by kyllästyä (to become weary of, fed up with): esim. kyllästyin asiaan, kyllästyin häneen, kyllästyin siihen, kyllästyin niihin. In another context, kyllästetty (note kyllästää/kyllästetty vs kyllästyä/kyllästytty) can mean saturated (in the physical sense), literally unable to take any more, and a kylläste can be a liquid treatment for materials that works by impregnation or saturation. Maybe that gives you some further feeling for kyllästyä as becoming "fed up."

(A saturated fat, however, is tyydytetty -- sated -- and not kyllästetty.)

An earlier discussion spoke of Sinuhe being named after "a" folk tale, but the Sinuhe of lore was supposedly well known to the Egyptians of whom Waltari writes. So Waltari's protagonist explains that his mother named him after Sinuhe of the folk tale. If I understand correctly, that earlier Sinuhe is known to us still today. That would be Waltari's source for the assumption.

Even though you went over the beginning of the book a year or so ago, it's probably very helpful to do so again like this and to recognize and parse the pieces more easily the second (and third and fourth) time.

[Pursuivant]

Big name for a small boy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Sinuhe

[Rob A.]

Yes, and since the -kse- infinitive form wants a personal ending, you can think of ylistääkseni as "in order for me to praise." That form is often treated as an advanced subject, but it's actually quite simple and once you've spent at most a couple of hours on it, you understand it forever. The personal ending makes -kse..- one of the least ambiguous of all ending groups and thus easiest to recognize. Overuse can sound a little pretentious, but that's harmless -- much better than treating cases and endings carelessly.

Regarding jumaliin, you seem to get(?) that it's governed by kyllästyä (to become weary of, fed up with): esim. kyllästyin asiaan, kyllästyin häneen, kyllästyin siihen, kyllästyin niihin. In another context, kyllästetty (note kyllästää/kyllästetty vs kyllästyä/kyllästytty) can mean saturated (in the physical sense), literally unable to take any more, and a kylläste can be a liquid treatment for materials that works by impregnation or saturation. Maybe that gives you some further feeling for kyllästyä as becoming "fed up."

(A saturated fat, however, is tyydytetty -- sated -- and not kyllästetty.)

An earlier discussion spoke of Sinuhe being named after "a" folk tale, but the Sinuhe of lore was supposedly well known to the Egyptians of whom Waltari writes. So Waltari's protagonist explains that his mother named him after Sinuhe of the folk tale. If I understand correctly, that earlier Sinuhe is known to us still today. That would be Waltari's source for the assumption.

Even though you went over the beginning of the book a year or so ago, it's probably very helpful to do so again like this and to recognize and parse the pieces more easily the second (and third and fourth) time.

Good... Thanks

Another interesting verb...kyllästää....and to play with this a bit I suppose a more modern version of Sinuhe's comment regarding "gods" might be:

Olin saapunut kyllästymisrajaan kuin jumalien suhteen....Or might this sound a bit too "American" for Finnish ears??...

I'm also wondering about the etymological origin of this string of verbs, nouns and so forth starting with the kyllä stem....Since kyllä is one of the Finnish "yes" words....maybe its ancient origin was as some kind of verbal intensifier?... like saying, "Certainly", in English instead of "yes"...

Any ideas?

[AldenG]

Olin saapunut kyllästymisrajaan kuin jumalien suhteen....Or might this sound a bit too "American" for Finnish ears??... ?

Olen saanut tarpeekseni jumalista. Would you care to translate or parse that?

To go with your sentence, you'd need to remove 'kuin' to make it say what I think you're you're trying to say.

I can't say how ordinary it would sound then. I also wouldn't know whether to use -aan or -lle with raja.

[AldenG]

(I think this is the point where someone follows up with a certain movie clip or poster.)

[Upphew]

I wouldn't use raja, but piste. In fact I googled if kyllästymisraja is a proper word

[onkko]

Another interesting verb...kyllästää....and to play with this a bit I suppose a more modern version of Sinuhe's comment regarding "gods" might be:

Olin saapunut kyllästymisrajaan kuin jumalien suhteen....Or might this sound a bit too "American" for Finnish ears??...

I'm also wondering about the etymological origin of this string of verbs, nouns and so forth starting with the kyllä stem....Since kyllä is one of the Finnish "yes" words....maybe its ancient origin was as some kind of verbal intensifier?... like saying, "Certainly", in English instead of "yes"...

Any ideas?

Remove "kuin" and it sounds good. "Olin saapunut kyllästymisrajaan jumalien suhteen."

Its from kyllästyä (i think) and i doubt that kyllä has anything to do with it. Its (be bored of/full of/cant take any more!/sick of!). For example railroad wood and outdoor wood is "kyllästetty" meaning those woods are just soaking all kind of stuff so it wont rot. Also kyllästyminen could be that you are totally tired of that one guy...

I hope this helped, as you know i have no idea about verbs and stuff

[jahasjahas]

I would say "saavuttanut kyllästymispisteen" instead of "saapunut kyllästymisrajaan" (note the different verb and the different case it requires).

Except for the fact that it sounds humorously technical.

How about something like "Olen kurkkuani myöten täynnä jumalia!" or "En jaksa jumalia!", though I don't think there's anything "non-modern" in "Olen kyllästynyt jumaliin."

[AldenG]

I would say "saavuttanut kyllästymispisteen" instead of "saapunut kyllästymisrajaan" (note the different verb and the different case it requires).

Except for the fact that it sounds humorously technical.

Much the way that "achieve an erection" sounds rather stiff in English.

I think Rob was going for a little science humor with kyllästymisraja (Wiktionary's version of 'saturation point', to my surprise, while Wikipedia redirects it to 'dew point' aka kastepiste), so you've probably perfected his meaning. I don't know anyone but a scientist or engineer who would say "I've reached the saturation point" in English. Or if anyone else did, they'd still be making an analogy to the chemical property.

Looking further, Google finds about 4:1 more instances of kyllästymispiste, which just somehow sounds more right, than of kyllästymisraja (makes me think of puuraja). Finnish Wikipedia has three instances of kyllästymispiste and only one of kyllästymisraja in a slightly different meaning of the boundary of an area (not a point) of saturation.

[Rob A.]

Olen saanut tarpeekseni jumalista. Would you care to translate or parse that?

Literally it says..."I have received my enough from gods."

But I've run into words like tarpeeksi before...in this instance, tarpeekseni looks a bit like the long form first infinitive, but its actually a noun with a translative case ending and is from that group of Finnish words that are theorized to have had an ending consonant at one time..... The base word is tarve but it declines as though there were a consonant there....in Finnish linguistics they call it a ghost consonant... Other examples are hame, liike, kuore

Here's a link...the discussion starts around page 119...

Finnish Noun Inflection

[Rob A.]

Another interesting verb...kyllästää....and to play with this a bit I suppose a more modern version of Sinuhe's comment regarding "gods" might be:

Olin saapunut kyllästymisrajaan kuin jumalien suhteen....Or might this sound a bit too "American" for Finnish ears??...

I'm also wondering about the etymological origin of this string of verbs, nouns and so forth starting with the kyllä stem....Since kyllä is one of the Finnish "yes" words....maybe its ancient origin was as some kind of verbal intensifier?... like saying, "Certainly", in English instead of "yes"...

Any ideas?

Remove "kuin" and it sounds good. "Olin saapunut kyllästymisrajaan jumalien suhteen."

Its from kyllästyä (i think) and i doubt that kyllä has anything to do with it. Its (be bored of/full of/cant take any more!/sick of!). For example railroad wood and outdoor wood is "kyllästetty" meaning those woods are just soaking all kind of stuff so it wont rot. Also kyllästyminen could be that you are totally tired of that one guy...

I hope this helped, as you know i have no idea about verbs and stuff

I checked my authoritative reference, Nykysuomen Etymologinen Sanakirja....which I paid about €65 for at Akateeminen kirjakauppa and keep forgetting I have on my bookshelf...

All these words are actually related to kyllä and according to this reference the ancient meaning was along the lines of "enough"...and this word is a good solid Finno Ugric word ...the related languages all have similar forms, though I didn't check that they are used the same way as kyllä. But it seems in modern Finland the Germanic version is the more common word....

And while I'm thinking about it, onkko, your English is improving rapidly and continually.... I don't know how you guys can do it... Finnish continues to be quite a struggle for me....

[Rob A.]

I wouldn't use raja, but piste. In fact I googled if kyllästymisraja is a proper word

Sometimes these kinds of scientific words just end up getting literally translated from some other language.... A lot of geology terms in English are literal translations from German...because, of course, they were the first in the field ....and why bother inventing a new word if one can be borrowed....though not everyone thinks that way....

I was trying to look up a Finnish version for "point-of-no-return"... in the aeronautical sense....but couldn't find anything.... Is there a colloquial way of saying this in Finnish??

There is another related term which is used sometimes in English, but I think these days many people probably don't understand it, but it's used for irreversible decisions of a more personal nature.... "cross the Rubicon".... Finnish version??? I did find something on this but it seemed more like a definition than something that would actually be said in a discussion.

[Rob A.]

...a little more...

Vaan itseni tähden minä tämän kirjoitan. En mairitellakseni jumalia, en mairitellakseni kuninkaita, en pelosta enkä tulevaisuuden toivosta. Sillä elämäni aikana olen niin paljon kokenut ja menettänyt, ettei turha pelko minua vaivaa, ja kuolemattomuuden toivoon olen kyllästynyt, niin kuin olen kyllästynyt jumaliin ja kuninkaihin. Vaan itsen tähden minä tämän kirjoitan ja siinä luulen eroavani kaikista kirjoittajista niin menneisyydessä kuin tulevaisuudessa.

"Instead for my own sake I am writing this. Not in order for me to flatter the goods, not in order for me to flatter the kings, not from fear about future hopes. For during my life I have experienced and lost very much, [that no pointless fear my inconvienence....???], and I am fed up with hopes of immortality, as I am fed up with gods and kings. Instead for my own sake I am writing this and thereby I believe in my separation from all writers from the past and from the future."

I last translated this a couple of years ago, but there are still some difficulties..... I can't quite get the sense of this clause:

....ettei turha pelko minua vaivaa..... something about pointless fear doesn't bother me...??? The rest of the passage wasn't too difficult, though some of my translations are probably still a bit clumsy.....

[AldenG]

I read it as Just 'gods' and 'kings' (no 'the'). Then: not out of fear or hope for the future. For...lost so much that no pointless fear troubles me. And: believe that I differ from ("believe myself differing from") all writers past and future.

Of course stylistically one would prefer 'not troubled [or untroubled] by. . . fears' but that's farther from the original grammar, which is paramount to understand at this pont.

[jahasjahas]

"turha pelko ei vaivaa minua" can be understood as either "no pointless fear troubles me" or "I'm not affected by any pointless fear"/"I'm not pointlessly afraid". I think the latter is what Waltari meant.