Remigration RP Questions
-
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am
Remigration RP Questions
Hello,
I recently learned I seem to be eligible for a Finnish residency permit per https://migri.fi/en/remigration, and am entertaining the idea of moving sometime in the next few years from the US. My grandmother was born in the US to Finnish parents shortly after they moved here, and prior to either of them obtaining US citizenship. I've read through as much documentation as I've been able to find, and where I've gotten stuck is on a piece of the documentation.
The application requires "Certificates from Finnish archives verifying Finnish citizenship (e.g. official certificates from parishes, certificates from the Finnish National Archives)" in addition to birth certificates for my US relatives. The birth certificates are no problem, and I have naturalization documents for my great grandparents as well, showing the year they relinquished their Finnish citizenship. However, I have had absolutely no luck finding any records online of my great grandparents birth or residency in Finland. I've checked what I'm able to on the Finnish National Archives site, as well as a number of ancestry sites - it looks like a lot of parish records stop at 1850, and I'm trying to find something between 1897-1917. Does anyone know any resources to locate this kind of document? I am also planning a trip to Finland next year to visit, and can do in-person reach potentially if needed, but have little idea where to start. And, I assume this is a hard requirement on the application, but is it? Would birth certificates of my grandparents and immigration paperwork perhaps be enough?
Also - let's say I figure out the paperwork and apply. The application also asks for a date of planned residency - how accurate does this need to be? Given the processing times, etc. I'm not really sure how to plan a move date. For example, if I applied today and specified a move a year from now, would it get rejected, or would something like that be acceptable? Two years? I saw another poster state their permit was good for 4 years - curious if that is the norm for one of these as well.
Thanks!
I recently learned I seem to be eligible for a Finnish residency permit per https://migri.fi/en/remigration, and am entertaining the idea of moving sometime in the next few years from the US. My grandmother was born in the US to Finnish parents shortly after they moved here, and prior to either of them obtaining US citizenship. I've read through as much documentation as I've been able to find, and where I've gotten stuck is on a piece of the documentation.
The application requires "Certificates from Finnish archives verifying Finnish citizenship (e.g. official certificates from parishes, certificates from the Finnish National Archives)" in addition to birth certificates for my US relatives. The birth certificates are no problem, and I have naturalization documents for my great grandparents as well, showing the year they relinquished their Finnish citizenship. However, I have had absolutely no luck finding any records online of my great grandparents birth or residency in Finland. I've checked what I'm able to on the Finnish National Archives site, as well as a number of ancestry sites - it looks like a lot of parish records stop at 1850, and I'm trying to find something between 1897-1917. Does anyone know any resources to locate this kind of document? I am also planning a trip to Finland next year to visit, and can do in-person reach potentially if needed, but have little idea where to start. And, I assume this is a hard requirement on the application, but is it? Would birth certificates of my grandparents and immigration paperwork perhaps be enough?
Also - let's say I figure out the paperwork and apply. The application also asks for a date of planned residency - how accurate does this need to be? Given the processing times, etc. I'm not really sure how to plan a move date. For example, if I applied today and specified a move a year from now, would it get rejected, or would something like that be acceptable? Two years? I saw another poster state their permit was good for 4 years - curious if that is the norm for one of these as well.
Thanks!
Re: Remigration RP Questions
Afaik migri decides the starting day for the permit based on your planned move.viveksilvola wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 amAlso - let's say I figure out the paperwork and apply. The application also asks for a date of planned residency - how accurate does this need to be? Given the processing times, etc. I'm not really sure how to plan a move date. For example, if I applied today and specified a move a year from now, would it get rejected, or would something like that be acceptable? Two years? I saw another poster state their permit was good for 4 years - curious if that is the norm for one of these as well.
Thanks!
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.
-
- Posts: 640
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:54 pm
Re: Remigration RP Questions
You might have problems if your grandparent was never registered as a Finnish citizen. Being born in the USA conveys automatic citizenship regardless and of parents’ citizenships it is entirely possible that your grandparent was never a Finnish citizen.
-
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am
Re: Remigration RP Questions
My understanding was that my grandmother would have become a Finnish citizen at birth, as her parents were at the time she was born. As far as I know she did not keep it, but it reads that as long as she was at any time I would be eligible. Is that not the case?heretostay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:38 pmYou might have problems if your grandparent was never registered as a Finnish citizen. Being born in the USA conveys automatic citizenship regardless and of parents’ citizenships it is entirely possible that your grandparent was never a Finnish citizen.
-
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am
Re: Remigration RP Questions
Makes sense. Thanks!Upphew wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:27 amAfaik migri decides the starting day for the permit based on your planned move.viveksilvola wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 amAlso - let's say I figure out the paperwork and apply. The application also asks for a date of planned residency - how accurate does this need to be? Given the processing times, etc. I'm not really sure how to plan a move date. For example, if I applied today and specified a move a year from now, would it get rejected, or would something like that be acceptable? Two years? I saw another poster state their permit was good for 4 years - curious if that is the norm for one of these as well.
Thanks!
-
- Posts: 640
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:54 pm
Re: Remigration RP Questions
Your grandmother would not automatically have been a Finnish citizen at birth. Eligibility for citizenship is not the same as having citizenship. As I understand it, if her parents never registered her right of citizenship, then she was never a Finnish citizen. This is why the requirement for documentation from national archives or parish in Finland is required for the application.viveksilvola wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:26 pmMy understanding was that my grandmother would have become a Finnish citizen at birth, as her parents were at the time she was born. As far as I know she did not keep it, but it reads that as long as she was at any time I would be eligible. Is that not the case?
-
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am
Re: Remigration RP Questions
heretostay wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:12 amYour grandmother would not automatically have been a Finnish citizen at birth. Eligibility for citizenship is not the same as having citizenship. As I understand it, if her parents never registered her right of citizenship, then she was never a Finnish citizen. This is why the requirement for documentation from national archives or parish in Finland is required for the application.viveksilvola wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:26 pmMy understanding was that my grandmother would have become a Finnish citizen at birth, as her parents were at the time she was born. As far as I know she did not keep it, but it reads that as long as she was at any time I would be eligible. Is that not the case?
I'm going off of this: https://migri.fi/en/finnish-citizenship which states: The Finnish citizenship of a child’s parent will automatically pass on to a child who is born on 1 June 2003 or later, if:
the child’s mother is a Finnish citizen
the child’s father is a Finnish citizen and married to the child’s mother
the child is born in Finland and the father is a Finnish citizen whose paternity has been established on 1 June 2003 or later
the child is born in Finland and the child’s non-birth mother is a Finnish citizen whose maternity has been established on 1 April 2019 or later.
This was of course as of 2003 - I am not sure if the law was different prior to that, and am not finding a resource describing what it was in the 1920s. Both of my grandmothers parents were Finnish citizens and married at the time of her birth.
-
- Posts: 640
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:54 pm
Re: Remigration RP Questions
I would consult migri directly since they would be the ones to make the decision. Your case is not straightforward and the law from 2003 is likely very different than in 1920. To me it seems that you are one generation too far to qualify for remigration, but I am not an expert at all. Consulting Migri or a lawyer in Finland would be your best option.
-
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am
Re: Remigration RP Questions
Ask the parish where your grandparents were born and married, the records might exist even when then haven't yet been made available online.viveksilvola wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 amHowever, I have had absolutely no luck finding any records online of my great grandparents birth or residency in Finland. I've checked what I'm able to on the Finnish National Archives site, as well as a number of ancestry sites - it looks like a lot of parish records stop at 1850, and I'm trying to find something between 1897-1917. Does anyone know any resources to locate this kind of document? I am also planning a trip to Finland next year to visit, and can do in-person reach potentially if needed, but have little idea where to start.
The application form says "Certificates from Finnish archives verifying Finnish citizenship (e.g. official certificates from parishes, certificates from the Finnish National Archives)".viveksilvola wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 amWould birth certificates of my grandparents and immigration paperwork perhaps be enough?
US documents usually contain whatever information the local clerk was told verbally.
It was common that people switched to an anglicized form of their name shortly after moving to the US, do you even have the original Finnish or Swedish names of your great grandparents?
Some people had reasons for claiming a different birth date or country of origin than the actual one, I've seen cases of 5 different birthdates when reviewing US records that clearly belonged to the same person.
The 2003 law was the first to introduce dual citizenship, before 2003 you automatically lost Finnish citizenship when acquiring another one.viveksilvola wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:39 amThis was of course as of 2003 - I am not sure if the law was different prior to that, and am not finding a resource describing what it was in the 1920s.
-
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am
Re: Remigration RP Questions
Thanks! That makes sense they would not all be online. I was able to find the Parish where they were born and a form to mail them, so I will do that. I expect they will have records - I was able to find records several generations earlier going back to 1600 as well as get in contact with some distant family who still live there.FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:32 pmAsk the parish where your grandparents were born and married, the records might exist even when then haven't yet been made available online.viveksilvola wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 amHowever, I have had absolutely no luck finding any records online of my great grandparents birth or residency in Finland. I've checked what I'm able to on the Finnish National Archives site, as well as a number of ancestry sites - it looks like a lot of parish records stop at 1850, and I'm trying to find something between 1897-1917. Does anyone know any resources to locate this kind of document? I am also planning a trip to Finland next year to visit, and can do in-person reach potentially if needed, but have little idea where to start.
The application form says "Certificates from Finnish archives verifying Finnish citizenship (e.g. official certificates from parishes, certificates from the Finnish National Archives)".viveksilvola wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 amWould birth certificates of my grandparents and immigration paperwork perhaps be enough?
US documents usually contain whatever information the local clerk was told verbally.
It was common that people switched to an anglicized form of their name shortly after moving to the US, do you even have the original Finnish or Swedish names of your great grandparents?
Some people had reasons for claiming a different birth date or country of origin than the actual one, I've seen cases of 5 different birthdates when reviewing US records that clearly belonged to the same person.
The 2003 law was the first to introduce dual citizenship, before 2003 you automatically lost Finnish citizenship when acquiring another one.viveksilvola wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:39 amThis was of course as of 2003 - I am not sure if the law was different prior to that, and am not finding a resource describing what it was in the 1920s.
I do have their Finnish names, yes - and you are correct they did modify them when they file immigration paperwork. We have family records with the original names and birth dates which I believe to be accurate.
Thanks for the answer about the 2003 changes too - I'm remaining optimistic that this could actually work out.
Re: Remigration RP Questions
Hi! I am in the same boat as the original poster! My grandmother was born in the US to my Finnish great-grand parents. My great-grandmother, Anna, was never a US citizen, and my grandmother born in 1920 was a Finnish citizen by birth, although she lost that citizenship at age 22 by losing her connection to Finland. I have been communicating with Finland Immigration and it sounds like I may qualify based on parentage of my grandmother, the fact she lost her citizenship doesn't matter, just that she was born to Finnish parents abroad.
I have been able to gather my birth certificate, my mothers and my grandmother's, but for the residency permit application I think I will need Anna's birth record from 1882 in Finland. I found her baptism record with a Parish in Iilsami, but I am unsure how to get any more official documentation for the application.
Here is what migri.fi lists as acceptable proof of Finnish birth:
Can anyone help point me in the right direction to get this information. I know what Parish and when my great-grandmother was born, but I am unsure how to get an official record. Thank you!
I have been able to gather my birth certificate, my mothers and my grandmother's, but for the residency permit application I think I will need Anna's birth record from 1882 in Finland. I found her baptism record with a Parish in Iilsami, but I am unsure how to get any more official documentation for the application.
Here is what migri.fi lists as acceptable proof of Finnish birth:
Can anyone help point me in the right direction to get this information. I know what Parish and when my great-grandmother was born, but I am unsure how to get an official record. Thank you!
-
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am
Re: Remigration RP Questions
The 2003 law that introduced dual citizenship did not apply in the 1920s, technically she lost her Finnish citizenship immediately after birth.teese05 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 amHi! I am in the same boat as the original poster! My grandmother was born in the US to my Finnish great-grand parents. My great-grandmother, Anna, was never a US citizen, and my grandmother born in 1920 was a Finnish citizen by birth, although she lost that citizenship at age 22 by losing her connection to Finland.
Should this be Iisalmi ?
Contact the parish.teese05 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 ambut I am unsure how to get any more official documentation for the application.
Here is what migri.fi lists as acceptable proof of Finnish birth:Certificates from Finnish archives verifying Finnish citizenship (e.g. official certificates from parishes, certificates from the Finnish National Archives)
Can anyone help point me in the right direction to get this information. I know what Parish and when my great-grandmother was born, but I am unsure how to get an official record.
https://www.iisalmenseurakunta.fi/yhteystiedot
Palvelutoimisto ja aluekeskusrekisteri
An email in English should be fine to ask them how to get a record.
-
- Posts: 4361
- Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am
Re: Remigration RP Questions
I haven't looked at 1920s law but the 1968 law already allowed dual citizenship in many situations at birth. Current and previous law don't function so that you gain and then lose Finnish citizenship at birth (again no idea about old law but seems like a weird mechanism in general).FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:50 pmThe 2003 law that introduced dual citizenship did not apply in the 1920s, technically she lost her Finnish citizenship immediately after birth.teese05 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 amHi! I am in the same boat as the original poster! My grandmother was born in the US to my Finnish great-grand parents. My great-grandmother, Anna, was never a US citizen, and my grandmother born in 1920 was a Finnish citizen by birth, although she lost that citizenship at age 22 by losing her connection to Finland.
"Henkilö, joka on sekä Suomen että vieraan valtion kansalainen, voidaan hakemuksesta vapauttaa Suomen kansalaisuudesta."
https://finlex.fi/fi/laki/alkup/1968/19680401
Re: Remigration RP Questions
THANK YOU! I did mean Iisalmi, had a typo. I will try contacting them!FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:50 pmteese05 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 am
Contact the parish.
https://www.iisalmenseurakunta.fi/yhteystiedot
Palvelutoimisto ja aluekeskusrekisteri
An email in English should be fine to ask them how to get a record.
Re: Remigration RP Questions
Thank you for this! I tried contacting Finnish Immigration and Citizenship, here's what they replied to my emails asking on this:betelgeuse wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:41 pmI haven't looked at 1920s law but the 1968 law already allowed dual citizenship in many situations at birth. Current and previous law don't function so that you gain and then lose Finnish citizenship at birth (again no idea about old law but seems like a weird mechanism in general).FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:50 pmThe 2003 law that introduced dual citizenship did not apply in the 1920s, technically she lost her Finnish citizenship immediately after birth.teese05 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 amHi! I am in the same boat as the original poster! My grandmother was born in the US to my Finnish great-grand parents. My great-grandmother, Anna, was never a US citizen, and my grandmother born in 1920 was a Finnish citizen by birth, although she lost that citizenship at age 22 by losing her connection to Finland.
"Henkilö, joka on sekä Suomen että vieraan valtion kansalainen, voidaan hakemuksesta vapauttaa Suomen kansalaisuudesta."
https://finlex.fi/fi/laki/alkup/1968/19680401
Email from me Sept 16 2021:
"Thank you for your reply. What I am not clear on is if my Grandmother was considered a Finnish citizen at birth as she was born abroad to two Finnish parents here in the states.
Does the parentage principle apply to my grandmother, born in 1920?
"A child of a Finnish citizen receives Finnish citizenship through his or her parents (the parentage principle). This means that the Finnish citizenship of a child's mother or father will automatically be passed on to the child. The parentage principle is always applied in accordance with the provisions of the Nationality Act that were in force at the time the child was born."
https://migri.fi/en/finnish-citizenship "
Their reply Sept 20, 2021:
"Thank you for your message.
According with the provisions of the Nationality Act that were in force at the time your grandmother was born (1920) it is possible that she received Finnish citizenship through her parents. But there’s a possibility that she has also lost Finnish citizenship when she turned 22 years. "
That sounded promising to me, but perhaps I am being too optimistic....? Thanks for all your help!