Language barrier

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Foreigner2
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:32 pm

Language barrier

Post by Foreigner2 » Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:42 pm

Hi,
I started my studies as an international student in Finland in 2018 in the field of electrical engineering,
Since our program was in English, we did not require Finnish language, so I did not follow it,
Now I am searching for a job and I see that 90% of jobs require a fluent level of Finnish language!!
If I start to learn the language there is no ground to give me a resident permit, if I do not learn this language, i can not get a job,
How to deal with this issue?
Thanks in advance



Language barrier

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FinlandGirl
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Language barrier

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:01 pm

Foreigner2 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:42 pm
I started my studies as an international student in Finland in 2018 in the field of electrical engineering,
Since our program was in English, we did not require Finnish language, so I did not follow it,
Now I am searching for a job and I see that 90% of jobs require a fluent level of Finnish language!!
I am surprised noone ever told you during your studies that the language in Finnish companies is usually Finnish.
Foreigner2 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:42 pm
If I start to learn the language there is no ground to give me a resident permit
With sufficient funds you are eligible for a 1 year job search residence permit after graduation.

If you learn Finnish 40-50 hours per week you should be able to reach a fluent level within 6-12 months.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by NukkuMatti » Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:14 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:01 pm
Foreigner2 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:42 pm
I started my studies as an international student in Finland in 2018 in the field of electrical engineering,
Since our program was in English, we did not require Finnish language, so I did not follow it,
Now I am searching for a job and I see that 90% of jobs require a fluent level of Finnish language!!
I am surprised noone ever told you during your studies that the language in Finnish companies is usually Finnish.
Foreigner2 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:42 pm
If I start to learn the language there is no ground to give me a resident permit
With sufficient funds you are eligible for a 1 year job search residence permit after graduation.

If you learn Finnish 40-50 hours per week you should be able to reach a fluent level within 6-12 months.
Even with fluent Finnish, when you name is not Finnish, you will not be hired.
Furthermore fluent Finnish for a foreigner is impossible, not even in 100 years.
You have to be born here to ever learn fluent Finnish, especially if you are a Beta student (technical / science), you miss the learning skills to learn languages that fast. I am an electrician / electrical / mechanical engineer, I speak reasonable Finnish, I never ever had a job in Finland in that field (written over 700 job application letters for that purpose). Only free labor (työharjoitelu), but this system is abused by employers to get free labor to maximize their profit.

Reasons: Too Much jobless Finns that can do the same... The companies want Finns, not foreigners. When an employer can choose between a Finn and a foreigner, they will always choose the Finn, even when the foreigner has better papers than the Finn (happened to me more than once).
Applying for jobs below your skill level will not work either, you will be(come) a threat to the position of the one hiring you.

If you ever want to make any money, move to Germany or the Netherlands, you will fare well with English only and they are screaming for workers like you, you can almost ask any salary what you want. Try that here in Finland...they will not even respond on your emails or call back requests.

Finnish companies (society) are killing their own future, but that is old news... this forum is full of links to news articles about that... Yle is a good source for that.

If you ever want a job here: Healthcare, want a good paid job: Doctor or Lawyer, both require Finnish though..

In your case you will soon be advised by TE office, to start your own company. Might not be so bad idea if you are really good.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Language barrier

Post by FinlandGirl » Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:03 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:14 am
move to Germany or the Netherlands, you will fare well with English only
Germany with English only is harder than Finland with English only.

It is not a bad idea to also look for jobs abroad, but for English only jobs the UK would be a better place.
NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:14 am
Furthermore fluent Finnish for a foreigner is impossible, not even in 100 years.
You have to be born here to ever learn fluent Finnish
Refugees from countries like Syria or Iraq have learned Finnish quite quickly.
NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:14 am
I am an electrician / electrical / mechanical engineer, I speak reasonable Finnish, I never ever had a job in Finland in that field (written over 700 job application letters for that purpose).
When 700 companies agree they don't want you, the problem are not the companies.

When an applicant is able to work in a Finnish-only environment and has all qualifications listed in a advertisement that should usually be sufficient to get some job offers.

I cannot judge your formal qualifications, but you are long-term unemployed for how long? A decade?

NukkuMatti
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by NukkuMatti » Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:25 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:03 am
Germany with English only is harder than Finland with English only.
You are mistaken:
I have worked in Germany without problem for a very good salary, with English only, on my level of education and below.
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:03 am
It is not a bad idea to also look for jobs abroad, but for English only jobs the UK would be a better place.
What a Nonsense: mostly every other Northern European country than Finland, you can easily get a job with English only.
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:03 am
Refugees from countries like Syria or Iraq have learned Finnish quite quickly.
Yeah I see a lot of those in high paid salary jobs...NOT they end up as bus drivers and their level of Finnish is far from fluent, not even close, actually my level of Finnish might even be better than the majority of the refugees.

That said, for a latin or germanian or mix thereof based language native speaker, Finnish is way more difficult than for any other with a different alphabet (Arab, thai, hindi, chinese japanese korean, etc). For the same reason it is easier for me to learn Chinese than Finnish.

FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:03 am
When 700 companies agree they don't want you, the problem are not the companies.
That happens when your family name is not Finnish. So the problem is definitely with the companies, this has been proven already long time ago and every year again several investigations by Yle or similar Finnish research confirms that in the past several decades little has changed.
We have had already several discussions about this where I copied the links to the Yle news articles, but it seems your memory is failing you.
Of course you can react like this, which is basically an insult based on prejudice and severely biased mindset about foreigners, you could also try to be different form all other Finns and actually open your mind to the possibility that you are actually a racist / foreigner hater or at least severely biased due to your country culture and your upbringing and take action to fix it, instead of hiding behind fallacies.

FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:03 am
When an applicant is able to work in a Finnish-only environment and has all qualifications listed in a advertisement that should usually be sufficient to get some job offers.
Under what rock have you been living in the past 100 years?
This is only true for jobs Finns do not want to do because it is hard or dirty work: why else do I see mostly black immigrants cleaning the road sides with danger to their own lives, cleaning the toilets in offices and shopping malls, drive busses and some lucky ones taxi's.
But again ... we have been here before with this discussion, it usually ends with insults and one of us getting a warning or the thread is being locked.

The following is a clear example of flame baiting and an insult by asking these questions, as if any answer on that, would change anything on your mind, in other words,it does not matter if I proof you wrong, it does not change the discussion.
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:03 am
I cannot judge your formal qualifications, but you are long-term unemployed for how long? A decade?
You cannot, but you do actually judge my formal qualifications without knowing them, why else the questions and earlier remark about employers not wanting me?
You assume as above shows, that it must be my own fault, that is presumptuous, insulting and derogating: you are no different than all those other biased Finns saying the same kind of things about immigrants that complain about (hidden) discrimination.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Language barrier

Post by FinlandGirl » Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:42 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:25 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:03 am
When 700 companies agree they don't want you, the problem are not the companies.
That happens when your family name is not Finnish. So the problem is definitely with the companies,
Either 700 out of 700 Finnish companies are racist, or the problem is not with the companies.

I've worked with many foreigners who worked for Finnish companies in Finland.
Plenty engineers from India, a black woman who is project manager, and many more.

With a degree in electrical engineering and sufficient Finnish it should be no problem to find a job in Finland.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by NukkuMatti » Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:28 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:42 pm
NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:25 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:03 am
When 700 companies agree they don't want you, the problem are not the companies.
That happens when your family name is not Finnish. So the problem is definitely with the companies,
Either 700 out of 700 Finnish companies are racist, or the problem is not with the companies.

I've worked with many foreigners who worked for Finnish companies in Finland.
Plenty engineers from India, a black woman who is project manager, and many more.

With a degree in electrical engineering and sufficient Finnish it should be no problem to find a job in Finland.
Dream on... in your perfect fantasy Finland... reality is different with a foreign surname and Non Finnish passport.

As I said: on 700 emails and or call, I was not even called back or answered. (except those 3) Not even a read notification..

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Language barrier

Post by FinlandGirl » Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:19 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:28 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:42 pm
NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:25 pm

That happens when your family name is not Finnish. So the problem is definitely with the companies,
Either 700 out of 700 Finnish companies are racist, or the problem is not with the companies.

I've worked with many foreigners who worked for Finnish companies in Finland.
Plenty engineers from India, a black woman who is project manager, and many more.

With a degree in electrical engineering and sufficient Finnish it should be no problem to find a job in Finland.
Dream on... in your perfect fantasy Finland... reality is different with a foreign surname and Non Finnish passport.

As I said: on 700 emails and or call, I was not even called back or answered. (except those 3) Not even a read notification..
The OP likely has a more foreign name than you have, but won't have a problem finding a job when fluent in Finnish.

FinnGuyHelsinki
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:28 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:28 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:42 pm
NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:25 pm

That happens when your family name is not Finnish. So the problem is definitely with the companies,
Either 700 out of 700 Finnish companies are racist, or the problem is not with the companies.

I've worked with many foreigners who worked for Finnish companies in Finland.
Plenty engineers from India, a black woman who is project manager, and many more.

With a degree in electrical engineering and sufficient Finnish it should be no problem to find a job in Finland.
Dream on... in your perfect fantasy Finland... reality is different with a foreign surname and Non Finnish passport.

As I said: on 700 emails and or call, I was not even called back or answered. (except those 3) Not even a read notification..
That's based on your experience. Based on mine, I've had Chinese, Indian, British, Spanish, Swedish, Russian, Polish, Peruvian, Japanese, Lithuanian, Pakistani,... and yes, also Finnish, colleagues in Finland. In large and small companies alike. So definitely not impossible to find a well-paid (by Finnish standards) job as a foreigner. Obviously not speaking the local language limits the opportunities in any country.

As a sidenote, an email recipient can choose not to send read notifications.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by NukkuMatti » Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:43 am

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:28 am
NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:28 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:42 pm


Either 700 out of 700 Finnish companies are racist, or the problem is not with the companies.

I've worked with many foreigners who worked for Finnish companies in Finland.
Plenty engineers from India, a black woman who is project manager, and many more.

With a degree in electrical engineering and sufficient Finnish it should be no problem to find a job in Finland.
Dream on... in your perfect fantasy Finland... reality is different with a foreign surname and Non Finnish passport.

As I said: on 700 emails and or call, I was not even called back or answered. (except those 3) Not even a read notification..
That's based on your experience. Based on mine, I've had Chinese, Indian, British, Spanish, Swedish, Russian, Polish, Peruvian, Japanese, Lithuanian, Pakistani,... and yes, also Finnish, colleagues in Finland. In large and small companies alike. So definitely not impossible to find a well-paid (by Finnish standards) job as a foreigner. Obviously not speaking the local language limits the opportunities in any country.

As a sidenote, an email recipient can choose not to send read notifications.
I agree, it is not impossible to find a job, it is just way more difficult due to the hidden discrimination and every Finn wants to deny that it exists, which makes it even harder to fix the problem.
Finns need to admit there is a problem, instead of trying to "vähätellä" the issue.

(PS. I built my own computers and networks, I also used to be a Network engineer in a NOC for British Telecom and T-mobile, so I am aware of the possibilities with Email, but thank you for pointing it out for everyone else).

As a side note regarding the job search, there is an invaluable thing you need to get a job here too, that is "Suhteet", without this you will have greater problems finding anything too, this is even true for Finns...

For the rest, the Työharjoitelu system is broken too, already since I came to Finland long time ago, it is abused by employers to get free labor and when the maximum term ends (6 months), they just switch to a new free laborer. I actually had a job interview with an employer (representing artists in Finland) that publicly admitted this during the job interview, he said it is their MO (modus operandi).

So to conclude this thread before this end up in a yes no yes no thread (what it already became again with thanks to my dear friend and possible date Finlandgirl).


When you search a job in Finland, you will face:
Discrimination both hidden and obvious, less pay than your Finnish colleagues doing the same work, work below your skill level, little chances on promotion, and more discrimination if your skin color is darker than that of a Finn.

But, in this world, nothing is impossible except learning fluent Finnish as a foreigner.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by NukkuMatti » Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:17 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:19 pm
NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:28 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:42 pm


Either 700 out of 700 Finnish companies are racist, or the problem is not with the companies.

I've worked with many foreigners who worked for Finnish companies in Finland.
Plenty engineers from India, a black woman who is project manager, and many more.

With a degree in electrical engineering and sufficient Finnish it should be no problem to find a job in Finland.
Dream on... in your perfect fantasy Finland... reality is different with a foreign surname and Non Finnish passport.

As I said: on 700 emails and or call, I was not even called back or answered. (except those 3) Not even a read notification..
The OP likely has a more foreign name than you have, but won't have a problem finding a job when fluent in Finnish.
Again an assumption based on ....what???? You do not know his name nor mine, so you are talking really %/(&%¤#¤#%&% here..

And again, speaking fluent Finnish for a foreigner, is virtually impossible.
For this I would like to give an example: I have a very good dear friend from Nepal, he speaks Japanese, Sanskrit, Nepali, Hindi, English, Finnish etc...
He lives here and he studied here at Helsinki Yliopisto, he lives here since 2007 but he does not speak fluently Finnish (I think he speaks very good Finnish though).
He could do his thesis in Finnish very well, but that was for sure not fluent Finnish (I read it). He works now for several years in service of the police for immigration related matters, for Social healthcare etc... but only as a freelancer, in all the past years, he never got a permanent contract, because of the FLUENT Finnish language requirement. The weird thing is that he did get the temporary contracts and the freelance contracts and did the same work as the permanent contract workers but he did not get the same benefits / salary. He is now depressed because of the huge amount of discrimination he faces in this country. He wants to move to Netherlands (again) where he lived before for several years and had NO trouble finding a permanent job while being an Erasmus student.

And you know I am right about the discrimination, you just do not want to admit it because it shows you are just trolling me here, because you like me, you want to date me, just ask me!

Luckily Yle news does: from today.... same thing, now specifically for Russians in Finland.
https://yle.fi/news/3-12171171

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Language barrier

Post by FinlandGirl » Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:57 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:17 pm
And again, speaking fluent Finnish for a foreigner, is virtually impossible.
I know many foreigners who came as adults to Finland and who are now speaking a nearly perfect Finnish.

As an example, many of the doctors in occupational/private healthcare are from abroad.

inkku
Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:26 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by inkku » Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:43 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:57 pm
NukkuMatti wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:17 pm
And again, speaking fluent Finnish for a foreigner, is virtually impossible.
I know many foreigners who came as adults to Finland and who are now speaking a nearly perfect Finnish.

As an example, many of the doctors in occupational/private healthcare are from abroad.
True. I have met two Germans who were speaking Finnish at native level. Actually, I even did not notice they were not Finnish until they told so. And other nationalities (Americans, French, various African countries...) whose language skills were very fluent, only minor issues.
In my opinion, the acquired linguistic competency depends on the attitude and motivation; on the methods and amount of work one does for learning and finally on language immersion. Just sitting through language courses does not help, one needs to hear, listen and use the language. It is a lot of work when learning any language, not only Finnish.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by NukkuMatti » Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:34 pm

inkku wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:43 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:57 pm
NukkuMatti wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:17 pm
And again, speaking fluent Finnish for a foreigner, is virtually impossible.
I know many foreigners who came as adults to Finland and who are now speaking a nearly perfect Finnish.

As an example, many of the doctors in occupational/private healthcare are from abroad.
True. I have met two Germans who were speaking Finnish at native level. Actually, I even did not notice they were not Finnish until they told so. And other nationalities (Americans, French, various African countries...) whose language skills were very fluent, only minor issues.
In my opinion, the acquired linguistic competency depends on the attitude and motivation; on the methods and amount of work one does for learning and finally on language immersion. Just sitting through language courses does not help, one needs to hear, listen and use the language. It is a lot of work when learning any language, not only Finnish.
Yeah my friends tell me the same about me, but I know I am not even close to fluent. This shows when I need to filter through Law texts in Finnish. Or when I have trouble reading the Finnish texts or listening to a conversation and sometimes actually understanding the opposite of what is meant.
There is a big difference between appearing fluent and actually being fluent in Finnish.
I am very good in hiding the fact that I do not understand parts of what is said, when someone speaks Finnish to me it becomes a big soup of words from what I distill the global meaning and I react on that, giving the conversational partner the idea I truly speak and understand everything Finnish. This is surely not the case.
The fact that I am accused of not even having an accent in Finnish helps with that perception too.

As I have personally noticed, it is not so much as the ability to speak fluent, but more the ability to understand the true meaning of the by Finns written and or spoken Finnish including all the different ways to explain a text. Especially with law texts, Kela language, official state related matters etc, this becomes obvious.

True that one needs to learn the language by using it, especially when the language used, is profession specific and cannot be learned otherwise.
For this to happen one needs to have the ability to actually have a job in such profession in the first place. Here is the chicken and the egg problem that comes up.

Add to this the difference between spoken language and written language, add to this the dialects spoken in Big cities (stadislangi?) and for example Savo in same named province.

In any case it is not as simple as FinlandGirl said that is is just a matter of learning 40-50 hours a week and then being fluent in Finnish.
And not everyone is able to learn languages well. Where I come from there are even different directions in school course, specifically sifting the students based on their learning ability, we call them A and B students A stands for languages and non technical courses while B stands for things like Physics Chemistry Math (Sciences).
As you can imagine from my posts in this thread, I was not the language skills gifted student but the other one. For that matter.. I am not even fluent in English, close but not exactly there. I would never presume to say that I am Fluent in any language but my native one. Even though when flying and transferring at airports I am regularly asked by desk personnel if I just flew in from London.

FinnGuyHelsinki
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:27 am

According to a recent survey 40% of employers state that they don't have the capability (good enough language skills) to hire English-speaking employees. A news story (in Finnish): https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-12174397

In an otherwise Finnish-speaking work place, it could create a major disruption if everyone had to start using English with one colleague.


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