Attachments to hot water pipes?

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agroot
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Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by agroot » Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:08 am

Is it allowed?

I just had the thought that not utilizing the free hot pipes seems like a waste and missed opportunity. For example, without actually opening the pipe, can I attach metal conductors touching the pipe and then to a large plate on floor, then put some surface on it, effectively making it a heated floor or seat in shower place? (like in Hammam)

Has anyone tried that? I guess there might be some materials from etsy, or I could use metallic lego to build one :idea:


but, if it's indeed allowed, why do we have heated bathroom floor powered by electricity? rather silly isn't



Attachments to hot water pipes?

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Upphew
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by Upphew » Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:14 am

agroot wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:08 am
Is it allowed?

I just had the thought that not utilizing the free hot pipes seems like a waste and missed opportunity. For example, without actually opening the pipe, can I attach metal conductors touching the pipe and then to a large plate on floor, then put some surface on it, effectively making it a heated floor or seat in shower place? (like in Hammam)

Has anyone tried that? I guess there might be some materials from etsy, or I could use metallic lego to build one :idea:


but, if it's indeed allowed, why do we have heated bathroom floor powered by electricity? rather silly isn't
Hot water pipe as in one that puts hot water to faucet? They are used for towel driers: https://www.taloon.com/kuivausteline-re ... ihtoehtoja
It is not allowed to use it for under floor heating, according to: https://www.neste.fi/vesikiertoinen-lattialammitys

Of course you can do whatever you like in your own home, in apartment you'll need proper plans, with approval from the board, and companies to execute those plans.
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agroot
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by agroot » Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:00 am

Upphew wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:14 am
Hot water pipe as in one that puts hot water to faucet? They are used for towel driers: https://www.taloon.com/kuivausteline-re ... ihtoehtoja
It is not allowed to use it for under floor heating, according to: https://www.neste.fi/vesikiertoinen-lattialammitys

Of course you can do whatever you like in your own home, in apartment you'll need proper plans, with approval from the board, and companies to execute those plans.
I don't mean permanent changes but more of something I can easily attach and detach when not in showering. That wouldn't require any approval yes? (it's rented)

Upphew
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by Upphew » Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:45 am

agroot wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:00 am
Upphew wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:14 am
Hot water pipe as in one that puts hot water to faucet? They are used for towel driers: https://www.taloon.com/kuivausteline-re ... ihtoehtoja
It is not allowed to use it for under floor heating, according to: https://www.neste.fi/vesikiertoinen-lattialammitys

Of course you can do whatever you like in your own home, in apartment you'll need proper plans, with approval from the board, and companies to execute those plans.
I don't mean permanent changes but more of something I can easily attach and detach when not in showering. That wouldn't require any approval yes? (it's rented)
I haven't seen any products that would match your needs, but you could put something between shower hose and faucet.
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FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:02 am

Upphew wrote:
Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:45 am
agroot wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:00 am
Upphew wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:14 am
Hot water pipe as in one that puts hot water to faucet? They are used for towel driers: https://www.taloon.com/kuivausteline-re ... ihtoehtoja
It is not allowed to use it for under floor heating, according to: https://www.neste.fi/vesikiertoinen-lattialammitys

Of course you can do whatever you like in your own home, in apartment you'll need proper plans, with approval from the board, and companies to execute those plans.
I don't mean permanent changes but more of something I can easily attach and detach when not in showering. That wouldn't require any approval yes? (it's rented)
I haven't seen any products that would match your needs, but you could put something between shower hose and faucet.
As I understood, OP is thinking about some DIY gimmickry which would conduct heat from a hot water pipe (which isn't intended for heating anything). The electric under floor heating is there so that whoever uses it, also pays for it.

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agroot
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by agroot » Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:07 pm

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:02 am
As I understood, OP is thinking about some DIY gimmickry which would conduct heat from a hot water pipe (which isn't intended for heating anything). The electric under floor heating is there so that whoever uses it, also pays for it.
Yep, I'm hoping to make something small, only fits to the shower area. Maybe a "hot" seat that I could sit or place my feet, like in steam-bath houses :D

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agroot
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by agroot » Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:20 am

Upphew wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:14 am
Hot water pipe as in one that puts hot water to faucet? They are used for towel driers: https://www.taloon.com/kuivausteline-re ... ihtoehtoja
It is not allowed to use it for under floor heating, according to: https://www.neste.fi/vesikiertoinen-lattialammitys
Did you mean this?
Nowadays, it is no longer accepted to connect underfloor heating to domestic hot water, but it must always be connected to the heating network
But then why does everyone use electricity powered floor heating for bathrooms instead of connecting to the heating network? looks like a huge waste of electricity. :?:

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network_engineer
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by network_engineer » Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:51 pm

Upphew wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:14 am
It is not allowed to use it for under floor heating, according to: https://www.neste.fi/vesikiertoinen-lattialammitys
Hi! Did not have time to read the whole thing through, but with a quick look, which part says it cannot be connected/ used for floor heating?

FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:56 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:51 pm
Upphew wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:14 am
It is not allowed to use it for under floor heating, according to: https://www.neste.fi/vesikiertoinen-lattialammitys
Hi! Did not have time to read the whole thing through, but with a quick look, which part says it cannot be connected/ used for floor heating?
It says that the hot water intended for human consumption (drinking, washing, cooking,...) may not be routed to be used also for heating. It says nothing about externally attaching something to the pipes, not that I'd suggest doing that, either. If the housing company was asked, Iikely their answer would be no.

riku2
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by riku2 » Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:36 pm

I think the neste page is more for house owners than those living in a block of flats where the flat just gets supplied with hot water for the taps and some kind of hot water going around a heating circuit.
If you have your own house then it would be a really strange design that the boiler heats hot water and that flows around under the floor before coming out of the taps. That's what the "not allowed to use it for underfloor heating" implies. This would mean the floor temperature would depend on how much hot water you use. Have a long shower and the floor gets really warm. In and out in a few seconds .. cold floor!! I suppose it would save the cost of a heating pump if you had this for the shower room and the other rooms had some other kind of heating (fireplace). Perhaps you might find that in a 100 year old house which was built before the concept of radiators in the room and a pump to circulate the heating water.

Why do some bathrooms in flats have underfloor electric heating instead of water heating? Probably because it would mean the building would need two separate water heating circuits. One for the living areas and one for the bathrooms. In the summer the living area heating circuit water is not heated (even if you turn the radiator thermostat fully open there is no heat in the water). The bathrooms would need their own circuit to have warm floors in the summer. This is probably hard to retrofit to blocks of flats.

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network_engineer
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by network_engineer » Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:49 pm

Upphew wrote:
Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:45 am
...
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:56 pm
... It says that the hot water intended for human consumption (drinking, washing, cooking,...) may not be routed to be used also for heating. It says nothing about externally attaching something to the pipes, not that I'd suggest doing that, either. If the housing company was asked, Iikely their answer would be no.
I suppose you mean this part?
"Nykyisin ei enää hyväksytä lattialämmityksen kytkemistä lämpimään käyttöveteen, vaan se tulee aina liittää lämmitysverkostoon."

If yes, it says that nowdays it is not acceptable to connect the floor heating pipes to the "potable" water (for lack of a better word), i.e. water used for human purposes, but should always be connected to the heating solution, i.e. the water based heating that runs through the radiators.

Just remember this that the water temperature allowed through the floor heating pipes make of PEX are very different from the water used in the radiators, so you would need a special "device" that does that.

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agroot
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by agroot » Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:03 pm

riku2 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:36 pm
If you have your own house then it would be a really strange design that the boiler heats hot water and that flows around under the floor before coming out of the taps. That's what the "not allowed to use it for underfloor heating" implies. This would mean the floor temperature would depend on how much hot water you use. Have a long shower and the floor gets really warm. In and out in a few seconds .. cold floor!! I suppose it would save the cost of a heating pump if you had this for the shower room and the other rooms had some other kind of heating (fireplace). Perhaps you might find that in a 100 year old house which was built before the concept of radiators in the room and a pump to circulate the heating water.
That sounds like a nice idea. But why not just put radiators under the floor than to use electricity or shower water?

I think the same could be applied to living area as well - what's the point of having radiators on the walls as opposed to underfloor?

riku2
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by riku2 » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:03 am

what's the point of having radiators on the walls as opposed to underfloor?
most new houses i've seen have underfloor heating. This works better with a heat pump because the heating water doesn't have to be very hot even at the height of winter. But retrofitting it to older houses means ripping up the floor and redoing it with the pipes embedded.

For flats even some new flats still have radiators rather than underfloor heating, so there must be some reason for that. perhaps it's cheaper to install. otherwise all new flats would have underfloor heating, but that is certainly not the case. Perhaps the floor will get a little warm anyway thanks to the flat underneath, so why bother with the expense of directly heating the floor (unlike with a house).

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network_engineer
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by network_engineer » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:06 pm

riku2 wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:03 am
retrofitting it to older houses means ripping up the floor and redoing it with the pipes embedded.
I've been trying to do that. The hardest part is just getting an LVI company to come and raise the heat-pump a few inches.

The heat pump has a relief valve that sometimes releases water, and so it is currently an inch higher than the surrounding floor. If I lay the pipes, then the rest of the surrounding floor would be raised as well and this causes an issue.

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agroot
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Re: Attachments to hot water pipes?

Post by agroot » Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:18 pm

I asked contractors and it doesn't look possible or easy to just rewire the district heating pipes. Or perhaps I could experiment with external attachment myself... How hard can it be? Just like water cooling in computer right? :D


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