Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

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network_engineer
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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by network_engineer » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:45 pm

agroot wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:50 pm
What I meant is that Finland only needs to offer competitive benefits over other countries. Whether it's the same as citizenship is not relevant unless their preferred kind of immigrants would choose here for that.
Understood.

To be fair, I also think this is not entirely a problem for Finland, but more a West dominant issue. Finland is one of the players.

Take this example, country wants to bring in 500.000 immigrants. Each principal immigrant is required to bring IIRC, 10.000.

10.000 * 500.000 = 5.000.000.000 !!!

That in itself has become a self-sustaining industry of modern slavery.

Get the immigrant to come in, bring money, and then earn money and pay taxes, so natives can live on the generous welfare - and still treat immigrants with racism, weakened job opportunities.

If I had the option, I'd e.g. keep the unemployment insurance active and more generous to the immigrant than to the native. I am now familiar with a lot of the highly-skilled immigrants whose résumé have been flipped out simply because of the name, or other such features, some being "native language" skills.

Equality. Equity. Justice. For me would mean that e.g. Finland has NOT paid for the immigrants birth onwards (pre-natal, neo-natal, early childhood, schooling, higher education) as they have done for the native.

If Finland has not paid for the birth onwards, the immigrants don't pay for the benefits either. E.g. The immigrant generation pays 1/10 of the tax bracket, healthcare-schooling etc. That puts the immigrant and native on a level playing field.

In that sense, I like the Middle Eastern countries. You don't get citizenship, PR etc. On the other hand, they don't take a share of your income to pay for their [subtly speaking] breakfast, sauna-as-apartment-taxi etc. needs either.
Last edited by network_engineer on Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

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betelgeuse
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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by betelgeuse » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:33 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:45 pm
agroot wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:50 pm
What I meant is that Finland only needs to offer competitive benefits over other countries. Whether it's the same as citizenship is not relevant unless their preferred kind of immigrants would choose here for that.
Understood.

To be fair, I also think this is not entirely a problem for Finland, but more a West dominant issue. Finland is one of the players.

Take this example, country wants to bring in 500.000 immigrants. Each principal immigrant is required to bring IIRC, 10.000.

10.000 * 500.000 = 5.000.000.000 !!!

That in itself has become a self-sustaining industry of modern slavery. Get the immigrant to come in, bring money, and then earn money and pay taxes, so natives can live on the generous welfare - and still treat immigrants with racism, weakened job opportunities.

If I had the option, I'd e.g. keep the unemployment insurance active and more generous to the immigrant than to the native. I am now familiar with a lot of the highly-skilled immigrants whose résumé have been flipped out simply because of the name, or other such features, some being "native language" skills.

Equality. Equity. Justice. For me would mean that e.g. Finland has NOT paid for the immigrants birth onwards (pre-natal, neo-natal, early childhood, schooling, higher education) as they have done for the native.

If Finland has not paid for the birth onwards, the immigrants don't pay for the benefits either. E.g. The immigrant generation pays 1/10 of the tax bracket, healthcare-schooling etc. That puts the immigrant and native on a level playing field.

In that sense, I like the Middle Eastern countries. You don't get citizenship, PR etc. On the other hand, they don't take a share of your income to pay for their [subtly speaking] breakfast, sauna-as-apartment-taxi etc. needs either.
There’s already a special tax rate for immigrants but the minimum income level is a bit high.

https://www.vero.fi/en/detailed-guidanc ... employees/

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by network_engineer » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:57 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:33 pm
There’s already a special tax rate for immigrants but the minimum income level is a bit high.
Oh yeah, only "32%" ... there's a word for that "rip-off" and "robbery" come to mind.

The tax rate is higher than what most natives pay. :twisted:

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by NukkuMatti » Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:52 pm

Sorry for skipping a few posts again but:
agroot wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:51 pm
NukkuMatti wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:39 pm
No !!! that is exactly the point what is wrong with Finns, they think alike you... which is the whole hate and discrimination creating problem!!!
You feel you have WAY more rights than others who are not Citizen.

It is the purpose of the country, any country, to first and foremost act on the benefit of its "tax paying RESIDENTS"
Citizenship is a privilege and residence status is a step up from tourist, to get workforce and potential citizens.

It's like a club with several grades of membership. A good club attracts new members by offering more benefits than other clubs; Treating everyone equally is not a benefit or an advantage.
Again NO!!

RESIDENCE is a privilege and there should be no difference in rights between being a resident and a citizen, for permanent residents not even the crippled voting rights, (eduskunta and president).

A lot of permanent residents do not ask for Finnish citizenship, mainly for two reasons: it is not allowed by law from their birth country, or they will lose citizenship from their original country when doing so, which can be a scary thing to do when you are living in such a hostile discriminating country like Finland, it feels like burning all your bridges behind you.... not a wise thing to do in the current time. It should not be needed anyway and in the current setting there is absolutely no other use for citizenship over permanent residence than acquiring the right to vote for president and eduskunta... nothing else.



Just today again: https://yle.fi/a/3-12681231

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by agroot » Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:07 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:52 pm
It should not be needed anyway and in the current setting there is absolutely no other use for citizenship over permanent residence than acquiring the right to vote for president and eduskunta... nothing else.
permanent residence permit may be revoked. citizenship cannot be.
NukkuMatti wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:52 pm
Just today again: https://yle.fi/a/3-12681231
"The network said that the difficulty many of these women face in finding work include family and child care reasons,..."

So, a part of them simply don't have no desire to seek employment, and probably wouldn't have considered it in their home countries.

Is it really about employment? Or high cost of life pushing those women to consider working in addition to working 8hr a day as housekeeper? Or perhaps EMN wishes to get everyone working no matter what their wishes or situations are. :roll:

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by NukkuMatti » Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:45 pm

agroot wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:07 am

"The network said that the difficulty many of these women face in finding work include family and child care reasons,..."

So, a part of them simply don't have no desire to seek employment, and probably wouldn't have considered it in their home countries.

Is it really about employment? Or high cost of life pushing those women to consider working in addition to working 8hr a day as housekeeper? Or perhaps EMN wishes to get everyone working no matter what their wishes or situations are. :roll:
And why would you make a discriminating and misogynist derogatory conclusion / post like this??

I know single parent family fathers that would love to go work already for 12 years but can't because the support for family / childcare are far below level in Finland (that does not mean it is better elsewhere but we are not discussing that now).
The quote you made of the article, emphasizes that it is not easy in life to combine raising kids and work at the same time because the possibilities for childcare offered in Finland are below the needed level (understatement), as is the help for Families, regardless of it being state paid or private paid. The same quote also suggests that it is very hard to combine family and child care life with a job for these women due to the absence of jobs with flexible hours or part time jobs available for immigrants..

The statement does not even come close to your conclusion.
I would suggest you get your head out of your.... well...you know... what I mean, maybe you should think for yourself for once (if you can) instead of sticking to old-fashioned ideas about family life and raising kids and women working fed into your brain by past stone age practices taught to you in your childhood and students life.

So basically your statement is so off target that it becomes to sound like trolling instead of actually posting an on topic reply.

This has nothing to do with if those women want to work or not, it has to do with the opportunity to do so if they want, being denied / hampered by discrimination based on everything you can think of, from being a foreigner to being a women or different race, being a LGBTQ+ etc etc. both in job opportunities as well as support or availability for child care / family care.

The fact that you seem to be finding it needed to reduce this struggle of women in finding a job to a cultural origin of a women's place in the family is downright shocking in this age and time.

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by agroot » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:00 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:45 pm
I know single parent family fathers that would love to go work already for 12 years but can't because the support for family / childcare are far below level in Finland (that does not mean it is better elsewhere but we are not discussing that now).
As compared to what? The article is about immigrant spouses from outside of EU.

In the region where I come from, not working = no money = no housing, food, water, phone, nothing. Kids would live on charity and adults begging on streets. It's not a choice between working or not and responsible adults would not have children unless they can afford it. And single parents, mostly by accidents, do have to work full time jobs in addition to finding time taking care of their children, often involving relatives for part-time help.

So no, while it's understandable for natives, I can't really understand how the lack of perfect support is a serious problem to people who moved or are going to move from outside of EU. After all, having sufficient income is one of the conditions of moving spouses and children here, not counting future job prospect of spouses which we know cannot be relied on due to language and certificate problems and there are also restrictions by law until they obtain citizenship.

PS: and yes you could argue improving it would help many Finns and non-Finns alike, but it's NOT a surprise and hardly a disadvantage to immigrants.

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by NukkuMatti » Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:30 am

Today:

https://yle.fi/a/3-10750592

I rest my case.... no need to say more..

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by network_engineer » Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:40 pm

agroot wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:00 pm
So no, while it's understandable for natives
Why? Why is it understandable for natives? They know the situation, they are familiar with the system. If they cannot manage, they shouldn't have kids. Which by way, could be a reason why the birthrate has been declining.
agroot wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:00 pm
I can't really understand how the lack of perfect support is a serious problem to people who moved or are going to move from outside of EU.
Nope! You could call it the unawareness of the immigrant at best. Or are you suggesting immigrants, especially work-based immigrants willingly move here knowing the problems they will face?
agroot wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:00 pm
After all, having sufficient income is one of the conditions of moving spouses and children here
Bureaucratic rules don't mean anything, just absolute and complete nonsense. Driven by insanity, incompetence, and arrogance at best. Nefariousness at worst.

I.e. If I may diverge for three sentences: Go over to Canada, personally met *many* qualified immigrants driving taxis (not belittling the profession). The very medical, and other degrees that were good enough for immigration points and validated by their own immigration and education systems are not good enough for jobs!. And not to rant, that's one of the dumbest countries I've ever seen, i.e. Canadian work experience requirement.
agroot wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:00 pm
not counting future job prospect of spouses which we know cannot be relied on due to language and certificate problems and there are also restrictions by law until they obtain citizenship.
Nope! Very few jobs reserved for citizens only, mostly if at all to do with public office and defence. Language is an excuse.

I remember way back in 2005, I had applied to a well-known IT integrations company. While I aced technically the interview, the excuse was that the "team speaks Finnish only, blah, blah, blah". I left the interview by posing a simple question: Please tell me How many of you teams call the router "reititin" and not "routeri". And which core systems (Unix, or network works) output data in Finnish. The command is *ALWAYS* quit, or exit, never ulos! Told them quite bluntly that the lack of skills in your teams in because they are unable to figure out the debug messages without memorising it.

So, no while some women may choose not work, those that choose to don't get the opportunity. And if the immigrant husband is working, he MUST and SHOULD fulfil his family needs over feeding the locals. The locals are not his headache or obligation.
  • Taxing the immigrant at the same high levels as the native (the country has not paid for birth, health or school),
  • while leaving little for his family here and e.g. dependent parents abroad
  • while not providing opportunities
  • and being discriminatory and racist
is the definition of modern-day-slavery!

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by agroot » Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:14 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:40 pm
So, no while some women may choose not work, those that choose to don't get the opportunity. And if the immigrant husband is working, he MUST and SHOULD fulfil his family needs over feeding the locals. The locals are not his headache or obligation.
  • Taxing the immigrant at the same high levels as the native (the country has not paid for birth, health or school),
  • while leaving little for his family here and e.g. dependent parents abroad
  • while not providing opportunities
  • and being discriminatory and racist
is the definition of modern-day-slavery!
I was born into modern-day slavery society where kids study all day in school, after-school school, or after-school-school home tutoring, and then conscripted into military where people believe would turn boys into men but in reality it's just a prison. Afterward we earn the privilege to work over 10 hours a day, without meaningful social security or pension, and spend most money on real estate which is like non-stop big bang. Children are every parents' retirement plans. Relatives are the welfare net. If someone screws up he'd have no choice but terminate himself by various methods. I have seen that a few times myself.


Here?

The salary compensates for the tax.
The salary compensates for money to parent. Not good enough? Not my fault I was born into such a great country.
Opportunities? I have a good job. Couldn't have come here otherwise. If I screw up, I get Kela and at least can't be homeless or starving.
Discrimination? Yes it can't be racist where I was born because everyone is treated equally bad.

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by network_engineer » Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:45 pm

agroot wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:14 pm
network_engineer wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:40 pm
So, no while some women may choose not work, those that choose to don't get the opportunity. And if the immigrant husband is working, he MUST and SHOULD fulfil his family needs over feeding the locals. The locals are not his headache or obligation.
  • Taxing the immigrant at the same high levels as the native (the country has not paid for birth, health or school),
  • while leaving little for his family here and e.g. dependent parents abroad
  • while not providing opportunities
  • and being discriminatory and racist
is the definition of modern-day-slavery!
I was born into modern-day slavery society where kids study all day in school, after-school school, or after-school-school home tutoring, and then conscripted into military where people believe would turn boys into men but in reality it's just a prison. Afterward we earn the privilege to work over 10 hours a day, without meaningful social security or pension, and spend most money on real estate which is like non-stop big bang. Children are every parents' retirement plans. Relatives are the welfare net. If someone screws up he'd have no choice but terminate himself by various methods. I have seen that a few times myself.


Here?

The salary compensates for the tax.
The salary compensates for money to parent. Not good enough? Not my fault I was born into such a great country.
Opportunities? I have a good job. Couldn't have come here otherwise. If I screw up, I get Kela and at least can't be homeless or starving.
Discrimination? Yes it can't be racist where I was born because everyone is treated equally bad.
All the post highlights is "I".

If only "I" is the keyword, i.e. everything for the "I", i.e. the surrounding, the focus, then yes, everything's great. If one were a bachelor, then the "I" can also have a great time, including free 5ex ... cherry on the top (or under) (pun) :twisted:

The "I" can definitely forget past and previous relationships, e.g. parents, their problem, they can fend for themselves. Who cares, eh? When the "I" retires, there'll be pension (hopefully).

Even in the earlier threads, it is quite clearly stated, it is NOT that other countries are great. Other countries including the one you state you were born into may have its challenges. Not denying that.

It is the false and grandiose virtue signalling! Constantly trying to capitalise on the "education system", while NOT highlighting the *fact* that the grades have been falling, and now where in the top rankings (IIRC). Trying to capitalise on the "happiest" while not telling the truth about the economy, joblessness, racism, etc.

Not a hard concept to grasp, is it?

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by agroot » Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:26 am

network_engineer wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:45 pm
It is the false and grandiose virtue signalling! Constantly trying to capitalise on the "education system", while NOT highlighting the *fact* that the grades have been falling, and now where in the top rankings (IIRC). Trying to capitalise on the "happiest" while not telling the truth about the economy, joblessness, racism, etc.

Not a hard concept to grasp, is it?
No but comparative advantages is all that matters.

Also the other advantage is that Finland being both a member of EU and of Nordic Council means we can then easily move to similarly highly-developed countries for jobs or education, once the citizenship is obtained.

There are only 3 countries in the world fitting that criteria, and the area covers all the highest-paying countries in Europe with most comprehensive welfare globally. Isn't this a great benefit, even if there are problems in Finland?

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by NukkuMatti » Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:47 pm

agroot wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:26 am
network_engineer wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:45 pm
It is the false and grandiose virtue signalling! Constantly trying to capitalise on the "education system", while NOT highlighting the *fact* that the grades have been falling, and now where in the top rankings (IIRC). Trying to capitalise on the "happiest" while not telling the truth about the economy, joblessness, racism, etc.

Not a hard concept to grasp, is it?
No but comparative advantages is all that matters.

Also the other advantage is that Finland being both a member of EU and of Nordic Council means we can then easily move to similarly highly-developed countries for jobs or education, once the citizenship is obtained.

There are only 3 countries in the world fitting that criteria, and the area covers all the highest-paying countries in Europe with most comprehensive welfare globally. Isn't this a great benefit, even if there are problems in Finland?
What comparative...??
If I use your analogy and examples, I turn out to be in Finland in a worse position than I would be in my native country... how comparative is that?
In my native country is good / better social welfare, to much jobs for the amount of available workers, better calculation of your holiday days, no need to count Saturday as a holiday when you take off the weekend from Friday till Monday it will cost you 2 days and not 3 like here..
Also there is way way less discrimination, and what is there is mainly fed by atrocities done by a select small group of immigrants from the south and around the equator. (Albanian maffia, mocro maffia, turkish grey wolves, italian maffia, south american organised crime etc) but in general, your color does not mater anymore that much.. Here in Finland only being a foreigner or being Finnish with a foreign last name, is already enough to be discriminated, not even talking about skin color, people with different skin color are having even a worse time here.

Then I am not even talking about the legal system here, man it is really obvious Napoleon has never been here and neither has the commonwealth.
Law texts are explainable in so many ways that without a lawyer it is almost impossible to understand what some laws actually mean, mostly because of the ambiguous nature of most law texts.

Talking about comparative, I guess where you come from with the need to work for 10 hours, instead of 12 in the UK at BT...is way way better then growing up in the refugee camps of Sudan, having disfigured bones due to malnutrition, having to see your multiple little brothers and sisters dying from hunger or war... yeah.. then even Russia would be a nice place to live so people there should not complain, and neither should the Ukranians, at least they still have electricity 4 hours a day...they should also not complain.... You see the consequence of your reasoning??

And to get back to the topic started: quote of myself
Here in Finland only being a foreigner or being Finnish with a foreign last name, is already enough to be discriminated, not even talking about skin color, people with different skin color are having even a worse time here.
but it is denied and hidden, that was my biggest surprise... there is no quasi comparative reasoning that can take that away or even make it look smaller.

You make yourself sound like a Mexican voting for Trump because too much of your fellow Mexicans are crossing the border.. and you do not like it....
From where I come there is a word for such a person.... I will not post it here... that would be impolite.

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by network_engineer » Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:42 pm

agroot wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:26 am
No but comparative advantages is all that matters.

Also the other advantage is that Finland being both a member of EU and of Nordic Council means we can then easily move to similarly highly-developed countries for jobs or education, once the citizenship is obtained.
You mean because you *** have *** to move around because you are considered inferior (language, skin, etc.)?

And so the passport only allows you to leave for a better opportunity? I am not sure I want to be that way, nor want to stay!
agroot wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:26 am
There are only 3 countries in the world fitting that criteria, and the area covers all the highest-paying countries in Europe with most comprehensive welfare globally.
I would say, consider travelling.

One of the ways I annoy the Finns when they talk about the Finnish healthcare, schooling etc.

I tell them I have travelled and lived abroad. NONE of the countries e.g. in the EU had people dying in the streets due to lack of healthcare, didn't see kids walking on the street since there are no schools etc.

No people riding on bullock cart and camels because there are no roads either!!! In fact, the Finnish roads are among the worst and they keep blaming it on the weather ... bull5&it!
agroot wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:26 am
Isn't this a great benefit, even if there are problems in Finland?
For you, sure. What if you had parents that brought you up, dependent and need you to be supportive of them? But you cannot, you have to feed the locals first. As I said in the previous message, I hear a lot of the "I".

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Re: Biggest surprise about living in Finland?

Post by agroot » Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:35 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:47 pm
You make yourself sound like a Mexican voting for Trump because too much of your fellow Mexicans are crossing the border.. and you do not like it....
From where I come there is a word for such a person....
I'm not voting anything since the current immigration policies are fine as they are.

Why would people move across countries only to complain about being mistreated but insist on staying? I can't understand this attitude.


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