New government’s proposed changes to citizenship and residence permits

[FinlandGirl]

Who said I wasn’t grateful? I am extremely grateful - you have no idea how lucky I feel. And we already have the money to take care of ourselves when we need it. We have planned for that. So give me a break here. You seems to carry yourself as an expert here, but you’re rather quick to judge when you don’t have sufficient information to do so.

You made it sound as if you considered getting citizenship very fast would be something you would be entitled to.

I never stated I was entitled to it, but like it or not, the criteria when I applied for residency was a 5-year path to citizenship. I’ve been studying Finnish intensively since I arrived to prepare for the language test. We planned for years to make this move, so if you can’t understand how these new rules would cause some sadness and anxiety, then perhaps having a little humanity would be appropriate.

You ASSUMED I felt entitled. I do not. I feel sad, disappointed, worried and anxious and so do many immigrants here. We are fortunate that we have the means to support ourselves after working and saving for many, many years to move here. We will of course accept whatever the new rules end up being, and nobody knows yet exactly how this will turn out. We are anxious to know what the new reality will be. If you don’t understand the anxiety around all these unknowns, then I will also make an assumption about you, which is that you aren’t a particularly compassionate person.

If you would be anxious whether you could still get an extension of your residence permit based on having one Finnish grandparent then you would have a point, but I doubt there would be changes to that. Citizenship will just take longer, but it shouldn't make a huge difference whether that's 5 or 8 years.

If you would have any compassion, you would understand that as a person with plenty of money and likely from a first world country like you is not the group of people that have actual reason for being anxious.

Are you from the US?
Your whole attitude sounds quite American.

[NansDrivel]

You made it sound as if you considered getting citizenship very fast would be something you would be entitled to.

I never stated I was entitled to it, but like it or not, the criteria when I applied for residency was a 5-year path to citizenship. I’ve been studying Finnish intensively since I arrived to prepare for the language test. We planned for years to make this move, so if you can’t understand how these new rules would cause some sadness and anxiety, then perhaps having a little humanity would be appropriate.

You ASSUMED I felt entitled. I do not. I feel sad, disappointed, worried and anxious and so do many immigrants here. We are fortunate that we have the means to support ourselves after working and saving for many, many years to move here. We will of course accept whatever the new rules end up being, and nobody knows yet exactly how this will turn out. We are anxious to know what the new reality will be. If you don’t understand the anxiety around all these unknowns, then I will also make an assumption about you, which is that you aren’t a particularly compassionate person.

If you would be anxious whether you could still get an extension of your residence permit based on having one Finnish grandparent then you would have a point, but I doubt there would be changes to that. Citizenship will just take longer, but it shouldn't make a huge difference whether that's 5 or 8 years.

If you would have any compassion, you would understand that as a person with plenty of money and likely from a first world country like you is not the group of people that have actual reason for being anxious.

Are you from the US?
Your whole attitude sounds quite American.

I’ve repeatedly said that all immigrants are worried. I am merely discussing my own situation but have a deep compassion and concern for everyone - EVERYONE - who is concerned about and impacted by this, and many of those people don’t have even (what you consider to be such) the slim tie to Finland that I do.

Look. I don’t want to argue with you about this anymore. You think I’m an entitled whiny hag and I think you’re a know-it-all who holds herself up as an expert here, as well as some sort of ad hoc judge and jury. So let’s bring this to a close, as we are clearly at an impasse. Feel free to ignore me in the future.

[irnbru]

I'm looking forward to the civics tests, questions about my faves Sibelius, Aleksis Kivi, lenkki sauna etiquette and isännöitsijä mediation.

[browndude]

I'm looking forward to the civics tests, questions about my faves Sibelius, Aleksis Kivi, lenkki sauna etiquette and isännöitsijä mediation.

There will also be a portion where you have to down a bottle of koskenkorva, eat a box of mämmi and pass out in the sauna.

[irnbru]

I'm looking forward to the civics tests, questions about my faves Sibelius, Aleksis Kivi, lenkki sauna etiquette and isännöitsijä mediation.

There will also be a portion where you have to down a bottle of koskenkorva, eat a box of mämmi and pass out in the sauna.

God help us if Perussuomalaiset ever win a majority. Mind you it sounds like Kokoomus have just agreed to the Minun
kampf manifesto in return for lining the pockets of their corporate masters

[FinlandGirl]

I'm looking forward to the civics tests, questions about my faves Sibelius, Aleksis Kivi, lenkki sauna etiquette and isännöitsijä mediation.

There will also be a portion where you have to down a bottle of koskenkorva, eat a box of mämmi and pass out in the sauna.

For people doing the tests in Swedish, there will also be a can of surströmming to eat.

[vincentsky]

My time in Finland is up I guess. My RP is up for renewal/becoming permanent in 2 years, well whatever. I've been working in Finland for 4 years, and lived in for 7. It's been fun yall, some the best years I've ever lived where right here in Finland, and that's coming from someone that lived in the US for 32 years. Ain't looking forward to going back there, but oh well..

The Finns Party wont budge on anything if foreign policy isn't on the table, so Orpo is being strong armed, he doesn't actually want to do the stuff they want to do.

[betelgeuse]

My time in Finland is up I guess. My RP is up for renewal/becoming permanent in 2 years, well whatever. I've been working in Finland for 4 years, and lived in for 7. It's been fun yall, some the best years I've ever lived where right here in Finland, and that's coming from someone that lived in the US for 32 years. Ain't looking forward to going back there, but oh well..

The Finns Party wont budge on anything if foreign policy isn't on the table, so Orpo is being strong armed, he doesn't actually want to do the stuff they want to do.

Don’t you already satisfy the criteria? If so, just apply today and protect yourself.

[vincentsky]

My time in Finland is up I guess. My RP is up for renewal/becoming permanent in 2 years, well whatever. I've been working in Finland for 4 years, and lived in for 7. It's been fun yall, some the best years I've ever lived where right here in Finland, and that's coming from someone that lived in the US for 32 years. Ain't looking forward to going back there, but oh well..

The Finns Party wont budge on anything if foreign policy isn't on the table, so Orpo is being strong armed, he doesn't actually want to do the stuff they want to do.

Don’t you already satisfy the criteria? If so, just apply today and protect yourself.

My current work based RP is not 4 years old. I've had 2 types of RPs. Marriage based was only for 3 years because I got divorced.

Basically, I currently have no continuous RP that is the same duration as the number of years I've resided in Finland.

I wish I was in the clear but the time factor has always been a worry on my shoulder.

[betelgeuse]

My current work based RP is not 4 years old. I've had 2 types of RPs. Marriage based was only for 3 years because I got divorced.

Basically, I currently have no continuous RP that is the same duration as the number of years I've resided in Finland.

I wish I was in the clear but the time factor has always been a worry on my shoulder.

Unless you had a cap between marriage and work permits (which doesn’t seem to be the case as you don’t mention leaving the country), you are already eligible. There’s no requirement that the A permits have been based on the same basis.

https://migri.fi/en/permanent-residence-permit

[irnbru]

My time in Finland is up I guess. My RP is up for renewal/becoming permanent in 2 years, well whatever. I've been working in Finland for 4 years, and lived in for 7. It's been fun yall, some the best years I've ever lived where right here in Finland, and that's coming from someone that lived in the US for 32 years. Ain't looking forward to going back there, but oh well..

The Finns Party wont budge on anything if foreign policy isn't on the table, so Orpo is being strong armed, he doesn't actually want to do the stuff they want to do.

How many Finns live in the USA? This is a pisstake

[jimmyguang]

The significant gap between the treatment of Finnish citizens/EU immigrants and non-EU immigrants will increase the prejudice against residents of non-EU background. I have begun to feel this growing prejudice, despite having lived in Finland for over 10 years. This goes against my expectation of the fairness and social justice that I believed the Finnish society upholds.

[NansDrivel]

The significant gap between the treatment of Finnish citizens/EU immigrants and non-EU immigrants will increase the prejudice against residents of non-EU background. I have begun to feel this growing prejudice, despite having lived in Finland for over 10 years. This goes against my expectation of the fairness and social justice that I believed the Finnish society upholds.

Well said.

[rupun]

fair citizenship after 4 years was always ridiculously short.

For a country that has hostile weather, a hard-to-learn language, and closed off social culture, would the 4 year requirement actually have been a favourable currency? *Many* western countries with e.g. English as the official language, or no language requirements (IIRC, including Sweden), and countries with lower taxes would now be the desired alternative.

It is dangerous to pander to close-mindedness when planning the future of the country based on the colour of the foreskin!

The longer times until you are eligible for a permanent residence permit or citizenship will apply to you
...

If you moved to Finland 50 years ago and apply for citizenship today, the citizenship rules from 50 years ago when you moved to Finland are irrelevant.

Finland has previously tried to apply new requirements retroactively, and been hit with court cases and they've lost. This might be a grey area, but one that would solve itself with an administrative case. I.e. if after four years, they raise the citizenship requirements to 12 years, would it leave the current applicants in a state of what exactly? It depends on the specifics of the case, i.e. the intent. E.g. if the applicant chose not to apply under previous rules, then it would be different vs. if the rules were not in favour of the applicant at that time.

The job market itself is very small, slow hiring in companies in general and locals are preferred over immigrants in lot of places.

This raises another interesting question: Equality before the law, and must be argued in court.

My personal opinion is that cancelling a permit of an unemployed immigrant to be considered fair and acceptable is ONLY IF they are treated equally as another tax payer.

E.g. if the unemployment benefits are valid for 500 days, then the native Finn, the non-native-Finnish citizen, and the foreigner must be treated equally. They can cancel the permit AFTER the 500 days (as the requirements for a new/ or renewed permit are not met).

If they want to cancel after three months, then the immigrant worker should also not be paying for the society and should be thus exempt from due taxes.

In simple words, if the foreign worker is not entitled to the same level of social services as a native or a citizen, why should they pay for the services?

At the end of the day, an economic migrant (work based) is a *free* gift to Finland, i.e. Finland has NOT paid for birth, health, education of the migrant but they get a productive resource from the date of the move. AND the migrant worker pays taxes from day 1. In that sense, one can argue the migrant worker is more valuable than the native one.

You should be more grateful that out of pure luck (and with no strong connection to Finland like speaking the language) you were granted a residence permit under the very generous rules of the remigration permit where one Finnish grandparent is sufficient to bypass all the rules that usually apply to everyone else.

That's presumptuous. Assuming you are not a native Finn. And EVEN IF you were, I'd wonder what did you do to be a native-Finn BEFORE you were born? Filed an application with the creator? Or chose your parents?

Whose taxes will pay the massive healthcare bill during the last years of your life?

Wouldn't the answer be, "Exactly the same that pays for yours?"

You made it sound as if you considered getting citizenship very fast would be something you would be entitled to.

As would anybody that had a parents of the same state. And that was a decision made by the state that *they wish to recognise* descendants of the state.

God help us if Perussuomalaiset

You spelt it wrong!

There's a likelihood that somebody will file a case when their application is rejected, all the way to the KHO. And then possibly to the ECHR.

I think a more reasonable approach that they would understand is to have an impact on public finances. Not a citizen, nor a permanent resident? Then the migrant has no responsibility either to pay for the cost of the society. Bring that on, and see how the PS run!

[FinlandGirl]

fair citizenship after 4 years was always ridiculously short.

For a country that has hostile weather, a hard-to-learn language, and closed off social culture, would the 4 year requirement actually have been a favourable currency? *Many* western countries with e.g. English as the official language, or no language requirements (IIRC, including Sweden), and countries with lower taxes would now be the desired alternative.

It is dangerous to pander to close-mindedness when planning the future of the country based on the colour of the foreskin!

You would have a hard time judging me based on that.

The longer times until you are eligible for a permanent residence permit or citizenship will apply to you
...

If you moved to Finland 50 years ago and apply for citizenship today, the citizenship rules from 50 years ago when you moved to Finland are irrelevant.

Finland has previously tried to apply new requirements retroactively, and been hit with court cases and they've lost. This might be a grey area, but one that would solve itself with an administrative case. I.e. if after four years, they raise the citizenship requirements to 12 years, would it leave the current applicants in a state of what exactly?

Current applications will have to be decided based on current rules, that's pretty clear.
Future applications by current applicants will be decided based on the new rules.

It depends on the specifics of the case, i.e. the intent. E.g. if the applicant chose not to apply under previous rules, then it would be different vs. if the rules were not in favour of the applicant at that time.

If you are being granted a residence permit today, that does not entitle you to being granted citizenship 4 years later.

E.g. if the unemployment benefits are valid for 500 days, then the native Finn, the non-native-Finnish citizen, and the foreigner must be treated equally. They can cancel the permit AFTER the 500 days (as the requirements for a new/ or renewed permit are not met).

At the end of the day, an economic migrant (work based) is a *free* gift to Finland, i.e. Finland has NOT paid for birth, health, education of the migrant but they get a productive resource from the date of the move. AND the migrant worker pays taxes from day 1. In that sense, one can argue the migrant worker is more valuable than the native one.

A working immigrant is a gift to Finland.

A non-working immigrant living from unemployment benefits paid by Finnish taxes is only a burden bringing us even higher taxes.

Whose taxes will pay the massive healthcare bill during the last years of your life?

Wouldn't the answer be, "Exactly the same that pays for yours?"

I pay taxes during my worklife.

I was answering to a pensioner who has never paid taxes on work income in Finland.
While you are right that a young immigrant who comes to Finland to work is a gift, someone who comes as pensioner spends only non-work years with high healthcare costs in Finland.

I think a more reasonable approach that they would understand is to have an impact on public finances. Not a citizen, nor a permanent resident? Then the migrant has no responsibility either to pay for the cost of the society. Bring that on, and see how the PS run!

Your approach is compatible with the PS approach that migrants who are not paying for the cost of the society should not be allowed to stay in Finland.