New government’s proposed changes to citizenship and residence permits

[network_engineer]

But that's not what happens at all companies.

Increasingly more the norm. I have a specific case where I wrote to a well-known pharmaceutical company all the way to their HQ on behalf of a few others, they were looking for technical testing staff (IIRC) and wanted fluent Finnish.

The nerve! It was not even a Finnish company, but they want a near-native Finnish speakers to test an application? How original!

There is also a certain disconnect between business demands for more immigration and such cases, if businesses would not want to hire immigrants in general there wouldn't be a demand for work-based immigration.

I somehow hold on to the principle that it is a two-way relationship. You don't want to hire? I don't want to buy! And I think if such "preferential hiring" leads to larger business losses, companies would be happier to kick out the problem creators (e.g. the hiring managers).

The other thing I have noticed? Companies are more okay to hire, albeit grudgingly, foreigners will technical skills that they don't have, only because they cannot manage without. However, the very same highly skilled worker that grows into management leader is hard for them!

[browndude]

But that's not what happens at all companies.

Increasingly more the norm. I have a specific case where I wrote to a well-known pharmaceutical company all the way to their HQ on behalf of a few others, they were looking for technical testing staff (IIRC) and wanted fluent Finnish.

The nerve! It was not even a Finnish company, but they want a near-native Finnish speakers to test an application? How original!

There is also a certain disconnect between business demands for more immigration and such cases, if businesses would not want to hire immigrants in general there wouldn't be a demand for work-based immigration.

I somehow hold on to the principle that it is a two-way relationship. You don't want to hire? I don't want to buy! And I think if such "preferential hiring" leads to larger business losses, companies would be happier to kick out the problem creators (e.g. the hiring managers).

The other thing I have noticed? Companies are more okay to hire, albeit grudgingly, foreigners will technical skills that they don't have, only because they cannot manage without. However, the very same highly skilled worker that grows into management leader is hard for them!
[/quote]

I have worked with building medical applications. It is common and even critical to require full fluency in the language the app is in since these are related to human health and well-bing.

[browndude]

If you would be anxious whether you could still get an extension of your residence permit based on having one Finnish grandparent then you would have a point, but I doubt there would be changes to that. Citizenship will just take longer, but it shouldn't make a huge difference whether that's 5 or 8 years.

Hope I made a quotation right. Kinda new to 1990s tech:D

Guess what, mate. The difference between 5 and 8 years is 3 god damn years. Now imagine yourself being a specialist or just a young person outside of EU with a brain in a head. Why on earth would you choose to gamble on stability of your life for 3 extra years?
FYI: UK, NL, Sweden, France, Portugal (these are just top 5 countries I cared to check) - they all provide a possibility to become citizen after 5 years of being a work based migrant.

I am very lucky that I can apply for citizenship already mid next year, coz I would be packing up my stuff rn and moving to any country on the list above.
Also Finland is the only single country in the whole EU which language is getting learnt in 1.2k hours instead of 600. Think of that.

That change is harmful from the economical point of view and just being ridicolously dumb. You sound as quite right person. So think of that.

P.S. I support almost every other change to the migration policy apart of 3 months kicking out period for people working in non-hospitality/cleaning industries, but that !"#¤% is just very dumb.

I cry as a taxpayer.

Also for everyone on this forum - PS are clearly far-left. They can call themselves any way they want, but the way they act is a classic far-left ideology combined with nationalism
[/quote]

I suspect the number of years required or requirements for citizenship will go up in the not too distant future in at least some of those countries mentioned since they are struggling with various serious problems related to immigration. But the point here is, citizenship brings with it not just varous priviledges but also various responsiblities. Ideally, a citizen will be committed to the needs of the nation in good times and in bad. Somone who is not willing to stay put for 3 years more is likely to be percevied as not being really sufficiently integrated enough to be a citizen. It is not just about the tax or your job skills that may be in demand at the moment.

[37yqp8098y5]

How is everyone feeling about the new government’s proposed immigration/citizenship changes? Do you think they’ll impact those of us who are already here? Only people applying for the first time?

https://yle.fi/a/74-20037253?fbclid=IwA ... nqJscJi3_0

Fantastic. Let's all work hard to keep out the undesirables from this wonderful country.

Let this be a reminder that the people who wanted to move here in the first place, wanted to do so thanks to the nationalist, conservative views of this land's forefathers. Not thanks to the liberal and socialist pricks like Sanna Marin who have time and time again milked the hell out of it for personal fame.

The faster this country can return to its roots and what made it a worthwhile place to emigrate to in the first place, the better. This situation has got so bad that people are basically turning against conscription now and the constitution which made this country what it is. Tolerance is violence.

[37yqp8098y5]

...

You've been writing on this forum for years and you still don't know how to quote people properly without breaking the quote tags or resulting in dozens of quote embedding, and in most of your threads you also double post and make blank posts which are just quotations of other people's comments without anything else. Are you really that inept? Maybe take a moment to check your posts before making them or learn how bbcode works? Aren't you supposed to be an engineer or something?

[network_engineer]

I have worked with building medical applications. It is common and even critical to require full fluency in the language the app is in since these are related to human health and well-bing.

Good, so we have a common knowledge domain between us. And NO, I disagree.

*Front-end user applications* or App presentation may require knowledge of the local languages. That is what you wrote, and that is okay.

It does not require the *core app developer* to be Finnish speaking at all, just the technical glossary and stuff to be in Finnish. In the overall development, that is less than 5% of the effort.

For developers, designers, architects (irrespective of the technical domain, db, infra, sec) require fluent Engish and not Finnish, e.g. to understand the medical compliance requirements (standards), e.g. IEC 62304, 82304, and getting the approval from the FDA and MDR.

In fact the overall core tech is purely English, nothing in Finnish. Any flavour of Unix/ Linux, it would be exit, not ulos!

[network_engineer]

FYI: UK, NL, Sweden, France, Portugal (these are just top 5 countries I cared to check) - they all provide a possibility to become citizen after 5 years of being a work based migrant.

BTW, seems Germany just announced that work based immigrants can also bring their parents! That itself is an attraction. Very often aging parents have to be left alone to fend for themselves while the immigrant serves the purpose of the locals.

Nope, there won't be chain immigration problems. Germany has learnt from other countries. The permit as I hear will allow dependent parents, but they dependent parents cannot further sponsor anybody else.

[browndude]

...

You've been writing on this forum for years and you still don't know how to quote people properly without breaking the quote tags or resulting in dozens of quote embedding, and in most of your threads you also double post and make blank posts which are just quotations of other people's comments without anything else. Are you really that inept? Maybe take a moment to check your posts before making them or learn how bbcode works? Aren't you supposed to be an engineer or something?

Since I am doing it again and again, it is quite clear that I am really that inept. Unfortunately not everyone is as capable as you so it is what it is . Also, I really don't care about formatting so there is that too-I am not an engineer, I am a scientist. Scientists try to solve hard problems and hand them over to engineers who make them pretty and broadly functional. I would like to delete all those bad posts. I have not figured out a way how.

[browndude]

I have worked with building medical applications. It is common and even critical to require full fluency in the language the app is in since these are related to human health and well-bing.

Good, so we have a common knowledge domain between us. And NO, I disagree.

*Front-end user applications* or App presentation may require knowledge of the local languages. That is what you wrote, and that is okay.

It does not require the *core app developer* to be Finnish speaking at all, just the technical glossary and stuff to be in Finnish. In the overall development, that is less than 5% of the effort.

For developers, designers, architects (irrespective of the technical domain, db, infra, sec) require fluent Engish and not Finnish, e.g. to understand the medical compliance requirements (standards), e.g. IEC 62304, 82304, and getting the approval from the FDA and MDR.

In fact the overall core tech is purely English, nothing in Finnish. Any flavour of Unix/ Linux, it would be exit, not ulos!

What you say is correct, for the front-end in particular, the language requirements may be quite strict. For the back-end tech, it may or may not be necessary, local language can be advantageous but English is often sufficient. In Finland, some government projects may require Finnish and or Swedish even though stricly speaking, the tech part of it may only require English knowledge.

[unknown1005]

Guess what, mate. The difference between 5 and 8 years is 3 god damn years. Now imagine yourself being a specialist or just a young person outside of EU with a brain in a head. Why on earth would you choose to gamble on stability of your life for 3 extra years?

The specialist will still be able to get a permanent residence permit after 4 years, citizenship does not bring much stability on top of that.

Also Finland is the only single country in the whole EU which language is getting learnt in 1.2k hours instead of 600. Think of that.

What source do you have that Estonian can be learned in half the time it takes to learn Finnish?

Finland being part of the EU needs to comply with EU Nationality Regulation. It is quite sad that people here keep an eye on the 8-year thing disregarding Article 6 of the Directive of EU Nationality Law. Take your time to read the article in verbatim. The special clause applies to those who are under the category of refugee and spouses. Stated as per below :

to "facilitate" the acquisition of nationality by certain persons, including spouses of nationals, children of its nationals born abroad, children one of whose parents has acquired the nationality, children adopted by a national, persons lawfully and habitually resident for a period before the age of eighteen, and stateless persons and refugees lawfully and habitually resident on its territory.
[/b]

Facilitation here under further articles is a concession given to certain types of immigrants. Rest assured FinlandGirl, the 8-year rule wouldn't apply to all. Even though I have a strong feeling you would want 10 or maybe even never Only fair to judge since you have been detrimental at judging others.

[FinlandGirl]

Finland being part of the EU needs to comply with EU Nationality Regulation. It is quite sad that people here keep an eye on the 8-year thing disregarding Article 6 of the Directive of EU Nationality Law. Take your time to read the article in verbatim. The special clause applies to those who are under the category of refugee and spouses. Stated as per below :

to "facilitate" the acquisition of nationality by certain persons, including spouses of nationals, children of its nationals born abroad, children one of whose parents has acquired the nationality, children adopted by a national, persons lawfully and habitually resident for a period before the age of eighteen, and stateless persons and refugees lawfully and habitually resident on its territory.

There is no EU Nationality Regulation, you are quoting the European Convention on Nationality by the Council of Europe.

The Council of Europe is not the EU, it is a different organization where countries like Turkey are also members.

Chapter III Article 6 of the European Convention on Nationality also says:

In establishing the conditions for naturalisation, it shall not provide for a period of residence exceeding ten years before the lodging of an application.

[37yqp8098y5]

.

[heretostay]

Also Finland is the only single country in the whole EU which language is getting learnt in 1.2k hours instead of 600. Think of that.

Swedish is always an alternative to Finnish for citizenship

[NukkuMatti]

then I will also make an assumption about you, which is that you aren’t a particularly compassionate person.

(Talking about FinlandGirl)

That is no assumption, it is hitting the nail on the head.
But she loves me...

[NukkuMatti]

Also Finland is the only single country in the whole EU which language is getting learnt in 1.2k hours instead of 600. Think of that.

Swedish is always an alternative to Finnish for citizenship

It will only get you nowhere in Finland except maybe some places on the west coast.