New government’s proposed changes to citizenship and residence permits

[NansDrivel]

fair citizenship after 4 years was always ridiculously short.

For a country that has hostile weather, a hard-to-learn language, and closed off social culture, would the 4 year requirement actually have been a favourable currency? *Many* western countries with e.g. English as the official language, or no language requirements (IIRC, including Sweden), and countries with lower taxes would now be the desired alternative.

It is dangerous to pander to close-mindedness when planning the future of the country based on the colour of the foreskin!

You would have a hard time judging me based on that.

The longer times until you are eligible for a permanent residence permit or citizenship will apply to you
...

If you moved to Finland 50 years ago and apply for citizenship today, the citizenship rules from 50 years ago when you moved to Finland are irrelevant.

Finland has previously tried to apply new requirements retroactively, and been hit with court cases and they've lost. This might be a grey area, but one that would solve itself with an administrative case. I.e. if after four years, they raise the citizenship requirements to 12 years, would it leave the current applicants in a state of what exactly?

Current applications will have to be decided based on current rules, that's pretty clear.
Future applications by current applicants will be decided based on the new rules.

It depends on the specifics of the case, i.e. the intent. E.g. if the applicant chose not to apply under previous rules, then it would be different vs. if the rules were not in favour of the applicant at that time.

If you are being granted a residence permit today, that does not entitle you to being granted citizenship 4 years later.

E.g. if the unemployment benefits are valid for 500 days, then the native Finn, the non-native-Finnish citizen, and the foreigner must be treated equally. They can cancel the permit AFTER the 500 days (as the requirements for a new/ or renewed permit are not met).

At the end of the day, an economic migrant (work based) is a *free* gift to Finland, i.e. Finland has NOT paid for birth, health, education of the migrant but they get a productive resource from the date of the move. AND the migrant worker pays taxes from day 1. In that sense, one can argue the migrant worker is more valuable than the native one.

A working immigrant is a gift to Finland.

A non-working immigrant living from unemployment benefits paid by Finnish taxes is only a burden bringing us even higher taxes.

Whose taxes will pay the massive healthcare bill during the last years of your life?

Wouldn't the answer be, "Exactly the same that pays for yours?"

I pay taxes during my worklife.

I was answering to a pensioner who has never paid taxes on work income in Finland.
While you are right that a young immigrant who comes to Finland to work is a gift, someone who comes as pensioner spends only non-work years with high healthcare costs in Finland.

I think a more reasonable approach that they would understand is to have an impact on public finances. Not a citizen, nor a permanent resident? Then the migrant has no responsibility either to pay for the cost of the society. Bring that on, and see how the PS run!

Your approach is compatible with the PS approach that migrants who are not paying for the cost of the society should not be allowed to stay in Finland.

I’m the pensioner about whom finlandgirl made those remarks. I told her that we did not move here until we had sufficient assets to pay for our own healthcare for the remainder of our lives. We are not here to be burdens on the taxpayers. PERIOD.

[jperickson]

A non-working immigrant living from unemployment benefits paid by Finnish taxes is only a burden bringing us even higher taxes.

Yes, in the current generation. But in a country with a good education system and one that allows for children to be independent of their parents' class (much like Finland, but sadly not always like countries such as the US where class of parents is a strong indicator for class of children), even non-working immigrants can have educated, working, native-Finnish/Swedish-speaking, tax-paying children for future generations. My understanding of Finland's projections is that the population triangle requires more educated, productive young people... period. It may be worth the cost of that one tax-burdensome generation when they were immigrants to Finland.

[FinlandGirl]

A non-working immigrant living from unemployment benefits paid by Finnish taxes is only a burden bringing us even higher taxes.

Yes, in the current generation. But in a country with a good education system and one that allows for children to be independent of their parents' class (much like Finland, but sadly not always like countries such as the US where class of parents is a strong indicator for class of children), even non-working immigrants can have educated, working, native-Finnish/Swedish-speaking, tax-paying children for future generations.

The 18 year old Somali girl born in Finland and with Finnish citizenship who comes back from a vacation in Somalia with a much older Somali husband will have many children but won't obtain much education or pay much taxes.

My understanding of Finland's projections is that the population triangle requires more educated, productive young people... period. It may be worth the cost of that one tax-burdensome generation when they were immigrants to Finland.

More than 8% of the population of Finland are already non-Finnish/Swedish native speakers, and on a typical Helsinki school 2% of all children speak Somali as native language (but were born in Finland).

You are saying it would be for the benefit of Finland to allow even more Somalis to migrate to Finland, because their children will be educated and productive?

Your theory is easy to disprove when you look at the Somali children born in Finland who are now adults.

Finland is better than some other countries at giving children opportunities despite bad parents, but best for Finland is to allow only people to migrate who have a higher probability of being parents who will raise educated and productive children.

The best way for getting educated and productive children is when both parents have college degrees and well-paid jobs.
Such parents are both role models and usually quite active in helping their children obtain the best possible education.

[browndude]

[/quote]

More than 8% of the population of Finland are already non-Finnish/Swedish native speakers, and on a typical Helsinki school 2% of all children speak Somali as native language (but were born in Finland).

You are saying it would be for the benefit of Finland to allow even more Somalis to migrate to Finland, because their children will be educated and productive?

Your theory is easy to disprove when you look at the Somali children born in Finland who are now adults.

Finland is better than some other countries at giving children opportunities despite bad parents, but best for Finland is to allow only people to migrate who have a higher probability of being parents who will raise educated and productive children.

The best way for getting educated and productive children is when both parents have college degrees and well-paid jobs.
Such parents are both role models and usually quite active in helping their children obtain the best possible education.
[/quote]

Just an observation, I do see many more people of Somali background doing much better professionally than when I first came here almost 15 years ago-there are still failures as well of course. Generally speaking, Europe does a much crappier job of integrating immigrants into societies than e.g. the US (where I lived for many years as well). The policy of paying benefits and not getting them into jobs very quickly seems to not be working very well.

[FinlandGirl]

Just an observation, I do see many more people of Somali background doing much better professionally than when I first came here almost 15 years ago-there are still failures as well of course.

That's a very low bar for comparison.

Today you see them in low-skill jobs like supermarkets or construction or kindergartens.
But they are not studying at university.

The policy of paying benefits and not getting them into jobs very quickly seems to not be working very well.

Yes, it's pretty stupid that there is a lack of workers in some areas while other people are receiving benefits for doing nothing.

[browndude]

Just an observation, I do see many more people of Somali background doing much better professionally than when I first came here almost 15 years ago-there are still failures as well of course.

That's a very low bar for comparison.

Today you see them in low-skill jobs like supermarkets or construction or kindergartens.
But they are not studying at university.

The policy of paying benefits and not getting them into jobs very quickly seems to not be working very well.

Yes, it's pretty stupid that there is a lack of workers in some areas while other people are receiving benefits for doing nothing.

Low-skill jobs are a start-people are needed to do those jobs as well. However, I have in fact seen many more in University as well-many more than 15 years ago certainly.

[BRIKOUI]

Just an observation, I do see many more people of Somali background doing much better professionally than when I first came here almost 15 years ago-there are still failures as well of course.

That's a very low bar for comparison.

Today you see them in low-skill jobs like supermarkets or construction or kindergartens.
But they are not studying at university.

The policy of paying benefits and not getting them into jobs very quickly seems to not be working very well.

Yes, it's pretty stupid that there is a lack of workers in some areas while other people are receiving benefits for doing nothing.

Hello I been in this forum for more than a year reading people's opinions while I agree with you most of the times finlsndgirl . But this time I must say that if everyone studied to be an engineer and a doctor who would do the low skills jobs . As it's been discussed before the job market is already small and I know lots of finnish and foreigner who has bachelor degrees but work in a lower profession cuz they don't want to be a burden . Now high skilled people wouldn't make finland even in top 10 choice to move to . Germany made easier laws Canada Australia the US the uk all have the advantage of the language and easy to settle. I am not against the new laws but they might make them leaner maybe citizenship between 5 to 6 years . It seems like the new government want to copies the danish law but denmark has a bigger market being close to lot's of countries in europ and less harsh weather . It's just my opinion

[FinlandGirl]

Now high skilled people wouldn't make finland even in top 10 choice to move to . Germany made easier laws

Germany used to be an absolute pain for migrants while Finland handed out citizenship to everyone after 4 years.

With the law changes proposed in Germany and Finland (both are so far only proposals) it might actually become more even, with an average salary you can still get a permanent residence permit after 4 years.

Canada Australia the US the uk all have the advantage of the language and easy to settle.

The main problem with the language is that often the spouse of the high-skilled worker has to learn it for having a realistic chance of finding any job.

I am not against the new laws but they might make them leaner maybe citizenship between 5 to 6 years .

Whether citizenship is available after 6 or 8 years should not be a main factor, as is evident by the fact that citizenship after 4 years has not been a huge benefit for Finland in the past.

It seems like the new government want to copies the danish law but denmark has a bigger market being close to lot's of countries in europ and less harsh weather .

A software developer in Denmark earns 30% more than a software developer in Finland.
A nurse in Denmark earns 30% more than a nurse in Finland.

People don't move to Denmark due to the weather.

[BRIKOUI]

I am also a foreigner I just came here and started a full time finnish course because my profession needs me to speak the language so i might be a burden. My wife has voted for ps . Not all foreigners doesn't want reform but my wife got surprised by how radical their new decisions. So a reform is needed but not to the extreme which would make foreigners live in anxiety of losing a job or being kicked out after they already started a life here. Of course there should be laws to strict the illegal immigration or asylum who are the big problem but most legal migrants want to build their lives and integrate. You said FinlandGirl that weather isn't what makes denmark a better choice . But I would say while it's not the biggest factor but an engineer from India or Mexico or Thailand who lived most of their lives in a warm country would consider weather as a factor too

[jperickson]

Finland is better than some other countries at giving children opportunities despite bad parents, but best for Finland is to allow only people to migrate who have a higher probability of being parents who will raise educated and productive children.

The best way for getting educated and productive children is when both parents have college degrees and well-paid jobs.
Such parents are both role models and usually quite active in helping their children obtain the best possible education.

In other words, Finland wants all of the benefits but doesn't want to do any of the work of integration.

[Mamu]

Who know then. if the new rules would apply those who has already Permanent Residence Permit and lose their job in the future does that 3 months effect those people who has family members who are Finnish ctizen.

[FinlandGirl]

I am also a foreigner I just came here and started a full time finnish course because my profession needs me to speak the language so i might be a burden. My wife has voted for ps . Not all foreigners doesn't want reform but my wife got surprised by how radical their new decisions. So a reform is needed but not to the extreme which would make foreigners live in anxiety of losing a job or being kicked out after they already started a life here.

Work based migration is intended for areas with demand, and there is a huge contradiction when people claim work-based migrants would be needed in an area because Finland needs them, but at the same they time argue that not finding a new job for over 3 months would be OK.

It has always been a prerequisite for a first residence permit on the basis of non-specialist work that it can only be granted after an assessment from the employment office that the position could not be filled by a jobseeker instead. And this needs an employer who is willing to offer you a job and then wait 3-4 months for a decision whether you will be permitted to start working.

Of course there should be laws to strict the illegal immigration or asylum who are the big problem but most legal migrants want to build their lives and integrate. You said FinlandGirl that weather isn't what makes denmark a better choice . But I would say while it's not the biggest factor but an engineer from India or Mexico or Thailand who lived most of their lives in a warm country would consider weather as a factor too

Someone from India who wants to live in a warm country won't move to Denmark, if you don't like snow that's also not a good place to live.

[FinlandGirl]

Finland is better than some other countries at giving children opportunities despite bad parents, but best for Finland is to allow only people to migrate who have a higher probability of being parents who will raise educated and productive children.

The best way for getting educated and productive children is when both parents have college degrees and well-paid jobs.
Such parents are both role models and usually quite active in helping their children obtain the best possible education.

In other words, Finland wants all of the benefits but doesn't want to do any of the work of integration.

No, the question is who can be integrated.

Your suggestion was basically that allowing more non-working Somali adults to Finland would be good for Finland, because they have many children.

The result we are seeing from what you want is a lot of tax money spent on the non-working 1st generation, and the 2nd generation is also over-represented in unemployment and prison statistics.

integrating migrants who are not working and who are living in their own language community in Finland is hard, for the 1st generation nearly impossible.

If the 1st generation comes for work, then integration is easier since it also happens through the work.

[FinlandGirl]

if the new rules would apply those who has already Permanent Residence Permit and lose their job in the future does that 3 months effect those people who has family members who are Finnish ctizen.

There is nothing proposed that would result in cancelling a permanent residence permit for such reasons, and it would also be unlikely to survive a legal challenge.

The current (old) version of the law says that it is possible to cancel a non-permanent residence permit on the basis of work on the first day of unemployment, making cancellations less arbitrary and more predictable is better for everyone.

[Mamu]

if the new rules would apply those who has already Permanent Residence Permit and lose their job in the future does that 3 months effect those people who has family members who are Finnish ctizen.

There is nothing proposed that would result in cancelling a permanent residence permit for such reasons, and it would also be unlikely to survive a legal challenge.

The current (old) version of the law says that it is possible to cancel a non-permanent residence permit on the basis of work on the first day of unemployment, making cancellations less arbitrary and more predictable is better for everyone.

What about for those if the permanent residence permit given based on family ties?