New government’s proposed changes to citizenship and residence permits

[FinlandGirl]

if the new rules would apply those who has already Permanent Residence Permit and lose their job in the future does that 3 months effect those people who has family members who are Finnish ctizen.

There is nothing proposed that would result in cancelling a permanent residence permit for such reasons, and it would also be unlikely to survive a legal challenge.

The current (old) version of the law says that it is possible to cancel a non-permanent residence permit on the basis of work on the first day of unemployment, making cancellations less arbitrary and more predictable is better for everyone.

What about for those if the permanent residence permit given based on family ties?

Permanent is permanent.

Non-permanent residence permits can already (and have sometimes been) cancelled when the grounds for granting it no longer exist.
There is no requirement that the ground continues to exist for permanent residence permits.

The rules for any permanent status or citizenship that might be applied for in the future can be changed, but rules cannot be added that take away something that has already been granted except for really weighty reasons.

[Rankin]

I regretfully moved to Finland less than one year ago on the basis of the transfer of an EU Blue Card from another country. I was eligible to apply for the EU of PR in one year. Now I'm questioning whether this will be possible anymore, and if so, my time might be better spent in another country. (I've already lived in the EU for about 5 years).

I've read the excerpts of the new rules, but it makes no mention of someone in my case. does anyone know more about this?

[betelgeuse]

I regretfully moved to Finland less than one year ago on the basis of the transfer of an EU Blue Card from another country. I was eligible to apply for the EU of PR in one year. Now I'm questioning whether this will be possible anymore, and if so, my time might be better spent in another country. (I've already lived in the EU for about 5 years).

I've read the excerpts of the new rules, but it makes no mention of someone in my case. does anyone know more about this?

They can’t change the EU law based permits. If they go through with the plans, people will just apply for P-EU instead of P.

[FinlandGirl]

They can’t change the EU law based permits. If they go through with the plans, people will just apply for P-EU instead of P.

I assume they will be sane enough to also adjust the requirements for that so that it won't become a more attractive option.

As an example, current German requirements for P-EU include:
- spotless criminal record
- B1 language
- civics test
- secure income
- at least 60 months of pension payments

[betelgeuse]

They can’t change the EU law based permits. If they go through with the plans, people will just apply for P-EU instead of P.

I assume they will be sane enough to also adjust the requirements for that so that it won't become a more attractive option.

As an example, current German requirements for P-EU include:
- spotless criminal record
- B1 language
- civics test
- secure income
- at least 60 months of pension payments

They plan to adjust also P-EU but there are limits in the directive. For example, the directive puts the residence requirement at five years.

[FinlandGirl]

They can’t change the EU law based permits. If they go through with the plans, people will just apply for P-EU instead of P.

I assume they will be sane enough to also adjust the requirements for that so that it won't become a more attractive option.

As an example, current German requirements for P-EU include:
- spotless criminal record
- B1 language
- civics test
- secure income
- at least 60 months of pension payments

They plan to adjust also P-EU but there are limits in the directive. For example, the directive puts the residence requirement at five years.

They want to keep a path for getting P after 4 years, the same requirements for P-EU as for P after 4 years would mitigate your worry that people might apply for P-EU instead.

[betelgeuse]

I assume they will be sane enough to also adjust the requirements for that so that it won't become a more attractive option.

As an example, current German requirements for P-EU include:
- spotless criminal record
- B1 language
- civics test
- secure income
- at least 60 months of pension payments

They plan to adjust also P-EU but there are limits in the directive. For example, the directive puts the residence requirement at five years.

The want to keep a path for getting P after 4 years, the same requirements for P-EU as for P after 4 years would mitigate your worry that people might apply for P-EU instead.

The program does have exception to this but it's clear that they are aiming for some people to be eligible at six. "Pysyvä oleskelulupa mahdollistetaan jatkossa kuuden vuoden asumisajan perusteella siten, että edellytyksinä ovat nykyisten edellytysten lisäksi kielitestillä todennettava riittävä kielitaito, kahden vuoden työhistoria ilman muuta kuin hyvin lyhytaikaista turvautumista työttömyysturvaan tai toimeentulotukeen sekä tiukennettu nuhteettomuusedellytys."

[dev-entrepreuner]

If you would be anxious whether you could still get an extension of your residence permit based on having one Finnish grandparent then you would have a point, but I doubt there would be changes to that. Citizenship will just take longer, but it shouldn't make a huge difference whether that's 5 or 8 years.

[/quote]

Hope I made a quotation right. Kinda new to 1990s tech:D

Guess what, mate. The difference between 5 and 8 years is 3 god damn years. Now imagine yourself being a specialist or just a young person outside of EU with a brain in a head. Why on earth would you choose to gamble on stability of your life for 3 extra years?
FYI: UK, NL, Sweden, France, Portugal (these are just top 5 countries I cared to check) - they all provide a possibility to become citizen after 5 years of being a work based migrant.

I am very lucky that I can apply for citizenship already mid next year, coz I would be packing up my stuff rn and moving to any country on the list above.
Also Finland is the only single country in the whole EU which language is getting learnt in 1.2k hours instead of 600. Think of that.

That change is harmful from the economical point of view and just being ridicolously dumb. You sound as quite right person. So think of that.

P.S. I support almost every other change to the migration policy apart of 3 months kicking out period for people working in non-hospitality/cleaning industries, but that !"#¤% is just very dumb.

I cry as a taxpayer.

Also for everyone on this forum - PS are clearly far-left. They can call themselves any way they want, but the way they act is a classic far-left ideology combined with nationalism

[FinlandGirl]

Guess what, mate. The difference between 5 and 8 years is 3 god damn years. Now imagine yourself being a specialist or just a young person outside of EU with a brain in a head. Why on earth would you choose to gamble on stability of your life for 3 extra years?

The specialist will still be able to get a permanent residence permit after 4 years, citizenship does not bring much stability on top of that.

Also Finland is the only single country in the whole EU which language is getting learnt in 1.2k hours instead of 600. Think of that.

What source do you have that Estonian can be learned in half the time it takes to learn Finnish?

[network_engineer]

Your theory is easy to disprove when you look at the Somali children born in Finland who are now adults.

I dislike commenting on a particular community. There are Somalis living in the US, well-working and productive. The recent riots across France, of late in Sweden, etc. show that this is a problem of integration. If there is a Somali person, born here, well educated, speaks the language well, what do you reckon are his chances of getting his CV through against a job opening?

Yes, it's pretty stupid that there is a lack of workers in some areas while other people are receiving benefits for doing nothing.

It has always been a prerequisite for a first residence permit on the basis of non-specialist work that it can only be granted after an assessment from the employment office that the position could not be filled by a jobseeker instead. And this needs an employer who is willing to offer you a job and then wait 3-4 months for a decision whether you will be permitted to start working.

Many of the immigrants, to be specific, the highly skilled immigrants that have lost their job, e.g. due to downsizing, or companies economic reasons, some of them are unemployed because despite their skills, they cannot even their CVs through the HR process. Any guesses why?

I daresay, the unemployment benefits should be maintained it for the highly skilled immigrants. Particularly if they are unskilled due to racism in hiring practices.

Denmark, Sweden, Finland

I really hope Europe does not lose its feet and fall back towards history.

The rules for any permanent status or citizenship that might be applied for in the future can be changed, but rules cannot be added that take away something that has already been granted except for really weighty reasons.

It would be quite scary if the PR is granted, e.g. after a period of being married (relationship grounds), and then the marriage breaks down. Theoretically, the permit is granted on the spousal relationship, and now it is no longer existing. Creates some fears!

nuhteettomuusedellytys.

Is this defined somewhere?

[betelgeuse]

nuhteettomuusedellytys.

Is this defined somewhere?

No. We will have to wait for the legislation proposals.

[FinlandGirl]

Your theory is easy to disprove when you look at the Somali children born in Finland who are now adults.

I dislike commenting on a particular community. There are Somalis living in the US, well-working and productive. The recent riots across France, of late in Sweden, etc. show that this is a problem of integration.

Some people are easier to integrate than others.
We have 4 times as many Russian native speakers than Somali native speakers in Finland, but Russians care a lot more about good integration and good education for their children and they are less living inside the bubble of their own community.

If there is a Somali person, born here, well educated, speaks the language well, what do you reckon are his chances of getting his CV through against a job opening?

Pretty good.

If she has a degree as nurse or software developer, she will have no problem finding a job.
A kindergarten teacher will also easily find a job.

The situation is different for people who are not well educated, and who are competing with hundreds of other people for the same job.

Yes, it's pretty stupid that there is a lack of workers in some areas while other people are receiving benefits for doing nothing.

It has always been a prerequisite for a first residence permit on the basis of non-specialist work that it can only be granted after an assessment from the employment office that the position could not be filled by a jobseeker instead. And this needs an employer who is willing to offer you a job and then wait 3-4 months for a decision whether you will be permitted to start working.

Many of the immigrants, to be specific, the highly skilled immigrants that have lost their job, e.g. due to downsizing, or companies economic reasons, some of them are unemployed because despite their skills, they cannot even their CVs through the HR process. Any guesses why?

Because they are still not speaking Finnish after several years in our country.

Most companies in Finland use Finnish as language for internal communication, hiring someone who does not speak the language is not possible for such companies.

[FinlandGirl]

nuhteettomuusedellytys.

Is this defined somewhere?

The current rules are:
https://migri.fi/en/crime

I'd expect PR after 6 years will not be possible for someone who has been found guilty or is suspected of one crime.

[network_engineer]

If there is a Somali person, born here, well educated, speaks the language well, what do you reckon are his chances of getting his CV through against a job opening?

Pretty good.

If she has a degree as nurse or software developer, she will have no problem finding a job. A kindergarten teacher will also easily find a job.
The situation is different for people who are not well educated, and who are competing with hundreds of other people for the same job.

I may agree with the kindergarten caretaker, the others, I disagree. Evidence? The most recent poll turnout. Let's forget Somalis for the moment.

I have an African friend (non-Somali), graduated from the Finnish school, studied at the Finnish UAS, married to a Finn, speaks Finnish. First name can be found in Finland too (Christian name, if that helps). Submits his CV via a common Finnish friend to a well-known non-Finnish technology consulting firm operating in Finland.

The hiring manager's sees the CV, seems to notice the surname, first question: "Where is the person from?" "From Ghana, but moved here young and studied here, is also married a Finnish citizen." Tosses the CV on his desk, and just nonchalantly says, "I'll think about it." Nothing!

[FinlandGirl]

If there is a Somali person, born here, well educated, speaks the language well, what do you reckon are his chances of getting his CV through against a job opening?

Pretty good.

If she has a degree as nurse or software developer, she will have no problem finding a job. A kindergarten teacher will also easily find a job.
The situation is different for people who are not well educated, and who are competing with hundreds of other people for the same job.

I may agree with the kindergarten caretaker, the others, I disagree. Evidence? The most recent poll turnout. Let's forget Somalis for the moment.

I have an African friend (non-Somali), graduated from the Finnish school, studied at the Finnish UAS, married to a Finn, speaks Finnish. First name can be found in Finland too (Christian name, if that helps). Submits his CV via a common Finnish friend to a well-known non-Finnish technology consulting firm operating in Finland.

The hiring manager's sees the CV, seems to notice the surname, first question: "Where is the person from?" "From Ghana, but moved here young and studied here, is also married a Finnish citizen." Tosses the CV on his desk, and just nonchalantly says, "I'll think about it." Nothing!

But that's not what happens at all companies.

There is also a certain disconnect between business demands for more immigration and such cases, if businesses would not want to hire immigrants in general there wouldn't be a demand for work-based immigration.