Residence permit by descent: How do I pay for Finnish documents from outside Finland?

[Mansikoita]

Moi. I'm working on applying for a residence permit by virtue of having grandparents who were Finnish citizens. I did a couple searches and didn't see any mention of this topic in the last few years, so I thought I'd document my process. I can go into detail about other parts of it later, but right now, I have a kind of funny roadblock.

To get proof that my grandmother was a Finnish citizen at birth, I looked up the website of the church parish where she was born, which directed me to the district office that sends out certificates. There was a way to order them online, but only if you had a Finnish ID number and bank account, which I don't.

So I emailed them and asked what to do. I gave them her name and date of birth, and that was all the information they needed. I didn't have to prove anything about who I was, which surprised me. They said they'd send me the document for 75 euros. I assumed that meant a piece of paper in the mail. I asked how I could pay the fee, and they said they'd invoice me.

Yesterday, the certificate arrived . . . as an email attachment, along with an identical attachment labeled "lasku" (invoice). I emailed them again and asked how to pay it. Wire transfer (which would cost me an extra $45-50)? Credit card? Paypal or some other app?

They replied, and I quote, "We do not accept any payment methods other than invoicing."

I feel like we've got some cross-cultural miscommunication going on here. To me, "invoicing" means "we send you a statement that says how much you need to pay and how you can pay it (check, credit card, website, etc.)" To them, "invoicing" seems to mean "We'll tell you how much to pay and it should be obvious to you how to do it."

There are some random letters and numbers at the bottom of the lasku, so I'm guessing that if I were in Finland, I'd give those numbers to my bank in order to pay? I'm pretty sure that won't work with my American bank. I asked them how I could pay someone in Finland, all they offered me was a wire transfer.

Any suggestions? I do have some relatives in Finland, although I haven't communicated with them in decades, except by liking each other's Facebook posts. Maybe I could send money to them via an app and they could pay the church office?

What's funny to me - and seems very Finnish - is that they just sent me the document without asking for money up front. Now that I have it downloaded to my computer, they can't take it away from me if I don't pay. But my sense of fairness and obligation makes me feel compelled to pay them. I feel like it will catch up with me somehow if I don't. And also, I want to support the system that keeps such excellent records and sends them out so efficiently. (I could go on and on about the hassles involved in getting a copy of my deceased mother's American birth certificate.)

The other thing that blows my mind is that the certificate lists my grandmother's henkilötunnus - personal ID number (like an American Social Security number). This is a woman who was born a few years after 1900, and moved to America in the 1920's. Finland didn't even have a system of personal ID numbers until the 1960's or 70's. But my grandmother has one. I wonder if it was part of the process of applying for American citizenship? I thought she did that in the 1940's or 50's, but maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, if anyone can explain how "invoicing" works in a Finnish context, I'd appreciate it.

[betelgeuse]

I feel like we've got some cross-cultural miscommunication going on here. To me, "invoicing" means "we send you a statement that says how much you need to pay and how you can pay it (check, credit card, website, etc.)" To them, "invoicing" seems to mean "We'll tell you how much to pay and it should be obvious to you how to do it."

The document you received fits your description.

There are some random letters and numbers at the bottom of the lasku, so I'm guessing that if I were in Finland, I'd give those numbers to my bank in order to pay? I'm pretty sure that won't work with my American bank. I asked them how I could pay someone in Finland, all they offered me was a wire transfer.

The random letters and numbers include IBAN and reference which is the only payment method accepted by DVV. You can use a service like https://wise.com/ to pay. Just be sure include both IBAN and reference.

[gramirezv]

When I paid for my translated documents to a certified translator from Finland, while living in the US at the time, I just made a transfer via Western Union, you use the details of the invoice (lasku), the account is the IBAN. Much cheaper than wire transfer using a bank

[Mansikoita]

Kiitos kaikkille. I guess I just needed it explained in more detail.

Can anyone explain why they would have assigned a henkilötunnus to my grandmother, forty or fifty years after she left the country? Or did they do it just now, because my request for her birth documents brought her into the digital age? I'm really curious.

I've been reading so much about the residence permit process, and how having a hetu is the key to being able to do so many things in Finland. I'm jealous that my dead grandmother has one and I don't.

[FinlandGirl]

This is a woman who was born a few years after 1900, and moved to America in the 1920's.

So I emailed them and asked what to do. I gave them her name and date of birth, and that was all the information they needed. I didn't have to prove anything about who I was, which surprised me.

Information about dead people is not protected.

Her birth was long enough ago that if these parish records have already been digitized (unlikely) they are at https://hiski.genealogia.fi/hiski?en

That's similar to the US, if you tell me her name and birth date I can likely figure out where she lived in the US.

What's funny to me - and seems very Finnish - is that they just sent me the document without asking for money up front.

That's not how online shopping works in Finland.

For some government services you get an invoice later, and the church also gets its money through church tax and not by selling birth certificates.

Can anyone explain why they would have assigned a henkilötunnus to my grandmother, forty or fifty years after she left the country? Or did they do it just now, because my request for her birth documents brought her into the digital age? I'm really curious.

The church does not issue it, they just sent you a certificate about an entry in their church book.

I wonder if it was part of the process of applying for American citizenship? I thought she did that in the 1940's or 50's, but maybe I'm wrong.

If she was still a Finnish citizen when they were introduced, then she should have one.
Or some aunt or uncle of yours lived in Finland 50 years ago.
Or some other connection she still had with Finland.

[Mansikoita]

It's fascinating how differently the bureaucracies work in the two countries!

Information about dead people is not protected.

Her birth was long enough ago that if these parish records have already been digitized (unlikely) they are at https://hiski.genealogia.fi/hiski?en

That's similar to the US, if you tell me her name and birth date I can likely figure out where she lived in the US.

In the U.S., *information* is not protected, but *official documents* are jealously guarded. Nothing on the internet or printed out from an email could ever be accepted as proof of someone's identity, birth, death, citizenship, etc. The only acceptable documentation is a piece of thick paper embossed with an official seal of some kind.

You can replace documents if they get lost or damaged, but you have to jump through a lot of hoops. My family has the original of my late mother's birth certificate, but the ink has faded so much it's not really legible.

To get a replacement, first you have to find out which agency handles this in the state where the person was born. Sometimes it's the county clerk, sometimes there's a separate registrar of births for a larger city, etc. In my mother's case, it's the New York City Health Department. I had to print out a form from their website, fill it out, get it notarized, and send it by mail, along with:

1. her death certificate (which my brother, fortunately, still had several official embossed versions of, since she only died a few years ago)
2. my birth certificate (official embossed one. Last time I replaced it, I asked for two, so I still have one in case I need it in the meantime)
3. a photocopy of my driver's license

They told me it can take up to twelve weeks. Once they mail me the precious embossed piece of paper, I have to either mail it or take it in person (online is not possible) to *TWO* other offices in order to get an apostille, which the Finnish government needs in order to accept a foreign document. One of these offices is in NYC and one is in Albany, NY, the state capital. Unfortunately, I live about a thousand miles away from either of these places, so I guess I'll do it by mail. That should take another six to eight weeks.

The tl/dr here is, all official documents in the U.S. have to be on paper, and there are fifty or more different record systems (one for each state, and sometimes different ones for different cities in the same state).

If I was asking NYC for my own birth certificate, they have both online and in person options, but for a deceased person, it has to be by mail.

I was born in another state, though, which has no online option. I forget whether they had an in-person option, but I live 500 miles from there, so I did it by mail. For that state, I sent it to the county clerk. I also only had to send it to one, not two, different places to get an apostille, so I've already done that.

Anyway, you can see why I was surprised to get an official document from Finland in an email, and without any documentation on my part about why I needed it. And without payment in advance!

For some government services you get an invoice later

This would never happen in the U.S.

If she was still a Finnish citizen when they were introduced, then she should have one.
Or some aunt or uncle of yours lived in Finland 50 years ago.
Or some other connection she still had with Finland.

I thought about it some more, and talked to my brother, and we figured some things out. She was definitely a U.S. citizen before 1967, because she was retired and collecting Social Security. The U.S. didn't allow dual citizenship until 1967, so she would have given up her Finnish citizenship.

My grandparents made several visits to Finland in the 1960's and 70's. My grandmother's brother died in Finland in 1975, so she may have been handling business related to his estate and needed a hetu for that.

[Mansikoita]

By the way, I did find her in HisKi, which is very cool. Thank you!

[FinlandGirl]

If I was asking NYC for my own birth certificate, they have both online and in person options, but for a deceased person, it has to be by mail.

Anyway, you can see why I was surprised to get an official document from Finland in an email, and without any documentation on my part about why I needed it.

A certificate for a (public) parish record of a deceased person is not that kind of official government document.

For an actual birth certificate of another person you need an acceptable purpose of use also in Finland.

The tl/dr here is, all official documents in the U.S. have to be on paper, and there are fifty or more different record systems (one for each state, and sometimes different ones for different cities in the same state).

Hetu was introduced for the digital population register we got in 1971, since then information like date of birth or current address is no longer maintained in paper records.