At least one thing going for me is that my girlfriend is Finnish
Any other really important things I should do before I leave...in about 25 days?
Thanks guys for your the time to look at this.
LBL
do I need to leave the country???
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lightbluelotus
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:37 pm
do I need to leave the country???
I will be moving to Helsinki with plans to teach English and/or work on pianos (two things I can do) but I was told by the Finnish Embassy in New York that if I get the job while in Finland, I'd have to come back to the US to get the work permit THEN go back. Is there any way around this silly situation? (besides having something lined up before I leave.)
At least one thing going for me is that my girlfriend is Finnish
Any other really important things I should do before I leave...in about 25 days?
Thanks guys for your the time to look at this.
LBL
At least one thing going for me is that my girlfriend is Finnish
Any other really important things I should do before I leave...in about 25 days?
Thanks guys for your the time to look at this.
LBL
That's indeed silly.
But if you can prove that you had to be in Finland for the job interview in order to get a job, then you could trick UVI and get a residence permit while being in Finland. At least it worked out for me. But I think, basically, the reason why they gave me RP around the rules is because I am such a charming, smart and amazing guy. If you are not smart and charming, you might have troubles.
But if you can prove that you had to be in Finland for the job interview in order to get a job, then you could trick UVI and get a residence permit while being in Finland. At least it worked out for me. But I think, basically, the reason why they gave me RP around the rules is because I am such a charming, smart and amazing guy. If you are not smart and charming, you might have troubles.
G.S.
Make war with love
Make war with love
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lightbluelotus
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:37 pm
1) Take your passport.
2) When you'll get a job, ask from the employer an official letter which states clearly that you are employed, what's your salary (important, so that the authorities will see that you can buy yourself bread and butter) and the letter must contain mentioning that you needed to visit Finland for a job interview. Then cry outloud to them that that's silly to go back to the States to wait for the answer and they will have no choice but to let you stay and wait for the answer. Pay 150€ and enjoy a couple of months waiting.
I even managed to go abroad while they were making a hard decision wether to let me stay in the country. I requested the passport and it was sent to me by post. At the border control I mentioned that my papers were in UVI, so they let you in even though you've been in Finland more than 3 months.
2) When you'll get a job, ask from the employer an official letter which states clearly that you are employed, what's your salary (important, so that the authorities will see that you can buy yourself bread and butter) and the letter must contain mentioning that you needed to visit Finland for a job interview. Then cry outloud to them that that's silly to go back to the States to wait for the answer and they will have no choice but to let you stay and wait for the answer. Pay 150€ and enjoy a couple of months waiting.
I even managed to go abroad while they were making a hard decision wether to let me stay in the country. I requested the passport and it was sent to me by post. At the border control I mentioned that my papers were in UVI, so they let you in even though you've been in Finland more than 3 months.
G.S.
Make war with love
Make war with love
Re: do I need to leave the country???
There is something slightly odd about the question "do i need to leave" when it comes from someone who hasn't even arrived yet. 
However, the general principle under the new Aliens Act remains the same as before: permission to come to Finland in order to work should be secured before arrival.
If you arrive without such permission, then the relevant provision is section 49 of the Aliens Act. Here is my translation, which I think is slightly better than the translation published by the Directorate of Immigration:
A temporary or continuous residence permit shall be issued in Finland to an alien who has entered the country without a residence permit if the
requirements for issuing such a residence permit abroad have been satisfied, and if:
1) the alien or at least one of the alien's parents or grandparents is or has been a Finnish citizen by birth;
2) before entering Finland the alien has already lived together with his or her married spouse who lives in Finland, or has continuously lived together for not less than two years in a common household in circumstances similar to marriage with a person who lives in Finland;
3) refusing a worker's or self-employed person's residence permit requested in Finland would be unfounded from the point of view of the alien or of the employer; or
4) refusing a residence permit would be manifestly unreasonable.
From the circumstances that lightbluelotus describes, and assuming that there is no Finnish origin involved, he or she should look at option 2 in particular. Option 2 also connects to the family reunification regulations in section 50 of the Act.
Just how serious is that girlfriend thing?
Option 3 is, I suspect, highly unlikely in view of the type of work described (plenty of underemployed English teachers in Finland), and option 4 is not one to bank on (trust me).
Speaking of the type of work, lightbluelotus does not say whether he or she is specifically qualified to teach English or "work on pianos" (As in Ashkenazy or Yamaha? I wonder...). I happen to be the chairperson of a trade union section for language teachers...
Having said all of this, I can see no compelling reason (except perhaps a double processing fee) for not filing the application Stateside before leaving. Even if you have no specific job offer, this application should at least specify a wish to enter Finland in order to live with a prospective spouse. Nothing then prevents you from then travelling to Finland and filing another application after arrival. These two applications ought to be processed in the order that they were filed, and in practice all of the factors bearing in favour of the application will come before the same official at the same time.
Please note that in principle it is now acceptable for married spouses to wait in Finland for the decision on their applications. This would not provide eligibility to work, however, but the waiting period for a worker's residence permit (or equivalent) is not normally terribly long if you can secure the job offer.
One last point: why is this a "silly situation" and what sort of alternative situation would not be "silly" (as opposed to merely "convenient for you")?
Kind regards,
daryl
However, the general principle under the new Aliens Act remains the same as before: permission to come to Finland in order to work should be secured before arrival.
If you arrive without such permission, then the relevant provision is section 49 of the Aliens Act. Here is my translation, which I think is slightly better than the translation published by the Directorate of Immigration:
A temporary or continuous residence permit shall be issued in Finland to an alien who has entered the country without a residence permit if the
requirements for issuing such a residence permit abroad have been satisfied, and if:
1) the alien or at least one of the alien's parents or grandparents is or has been a Finnish citizen by birth;
2) before entering Finland the alien has already lived together with his or her married spouse who lives in Finland, or has continuously lived together for not less than two years in a common household in circumstances similar to marriage with a person who lives in Finland;
3) refusing a worker's or self-employed person's residence permit requested in Finland would be unfounded from the point of view of the alien or of the employer; or
4) refusing a residence permit would be manifestly unreasonable.
From the circumstances that lightbluelotus describes, and assuming that there is no Finnish origin involved, he or she should look at option 2 in particular. Option 2 also connects to the family reunification regulations in section 50 of the Act.
Just how serious is that girlfriend thing?
Option 3 is, I suspect, highly unlikely in view of the type of work described (plenty of underemployed English teachers in Finland), and option 4 is not one to bank on (trust me).
Speaking of the type of work, lightbluelotus does not say whether he or she is specifically qualified to teach English or "work on pianos" (As in Ashkenazy or Yamaha? I wonder...). I happen to be the chairperson of a trade union section for language teachers...
Having said all of this, I can see no compelling reason (except perhaps a double processing fee) for not filing the application Stateside before leaving. Even if you have no specific job offer, this application should at least specify a wish to enter Finland in order to live with a prospective spouse. Nothing then prevents you from then travelling to Finland and filing another application after arrival. These two applications ought to be processed in the order that they were filed, and in practice all of the factors bearing in favour of the application will come before the same official at the same time.
Please note that in principle it is now acceptable for married spouses to wait in Finland for the decision on their applications. This would not provide eligibility to work, however, but the waiting period for a worker's residence permit (or equivalent) is not normally terribly long if you can secure the job offer.
One last point: why is this a "silly situation" and what sort of alternative situation would not be "silly" (as opposed to merely "convenient for you")?
Kind regards,
daryl
lightbluelotus wrote:I will be moving to Helsinki with plans to teach English and/or work on pianos (two things I can do) but I was told by the Finnish Embassy in New York that if I get the job while in Finland, I'd have to come back to the US to get the work permit THEN go back. Is there any way around this silly situation? (besides having something lined up before I leave.)
At least one thing going for me is that my girlfriend is Finnish
Any other really important things I should do before I leave...in about 25 days?
Thanks guys for your the time to look at this.
LBL
Oh my word!
Did I see encouragement here for both the employer and the employee to conspire to falsify information given to a public authority?
The "official letter" should give the impression that the employer invited the employee to an interview before the employee arrived in Finland? Presumably, then, the letter will have to be pre-dated to a time before the Schengen entry-stamp in the employee's passport.
Hmmm... "Take your passport" - tricky to get out of the USA without one, I'd say, unless LBL intends to swin the Rio Grande.
There is no problem involved in travelling while a permit application is pending. At worst all that this requires is a return visa issued by a local police station.
Kind regards,
daryl
Did I see encouragement here for both the employer and the employee to conspire to falsify information given to a public authority?
The "official letter" should give the impression that the employer invited the employee to an interview before the employee arrived in Finland? Presumably, then, the letter will have to be pre-dated to a time before the Schengen entry-stamp in the employee's passport.
Hmmm... "Take your passport" - tricky to get out of the USA without one, I'd say, unless LBL intends to swin the Rio Grande.
There is no problem involved in travelling while a permit application is pending. At worst all that this requires is a return visa issued by a local police station.
Kind regards,
daryl
Samppa wrote:1) Take your passport.
2) When you'll get a job, ask from the employer an official letter which states clearly that you are employed, what's your salary (important, so that the authorities will see that you can buy yourself bread and butter) and the letter must contain mentioning that you needed to visit Finland for a job interview. Then cry outloud to them that that's silly to go back to the States to wait for the answer and they will have no choice but to let you stay and wait for the answer. Pay 150€ and enjoy a couple of months waiting.
I even managed to go abroad while they were making a hard decision wether to let me stay in the country. I requested the passport and it was sent to me by post. At the border control I mentioned that my papers were in UVI, so they let you in even though you've been in Finland more than 3 months.
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lightbluelotus
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:37 pm
Thanks for the info Daryl.
Maybe I should have finished the question of "do I need to leave the country TO WAIT FOR A WORK VISA ONCE I ARRIVE AND SECURE A JOB IN FINLAND?" but I thought that that would be too long of a title.
What's SILLY is if I could stay in the country rather than having to go all the way back to the US and pay for another ticket that I don't really have money for. This, would be indeed silly.
I AM new to all of this and I want to find a way to be with my girlfriend. This is the reason I am trying to figure this all out. When you say that I can "fill out the application stateside," do you mean a residence permit app and if so, how would this be a possibility if I haven't lived with my girlfriend in Finland for two years AND of course am not married to her? I'm just trying to figure out all of this SILLY beaurocratic !"#¤%. (and please don't ask me why it is !"#¤%) Is there anything I can fill out now, here, before I leave in 25 days to try and find a job in Finland? I guess this is one of my main questions now. Thanks for getting me closer to it.
Sincerely,
LBL
Maybe I should have finished the question of "do I need to leave the country TO WAIT FOR A WORK VISA ONCE I ARRIVE AND SECURE A JOB IN FINLAND?" but I thought that that would be too long of a title.
What's SILLY is if I could stay in the country rather than having to go all the way back to the US and pay for another ticket that I don't really have money for. This, would be indeed silly.
I AM new to all of this and I want to find a way to be with my girlfriend. This is the reason I am trying to figure this all out. When you say that I can "fill out the application stateside," do you mean a residence permit app and if so, how would this be a possibility if I haven't lived with my girlfriend in Finland for two years AND of course am not married to her? I'm just trying to figure out all of this SILLY beaurocratic !"#¤%. (and please don't ask me why it is !"#¤%) Is there anything I can fill out now, here, before I leave in 25 days to try and find a job in Finland? I guess this is one of my main questions now. Thanks for getting me closer to it.
Sincerely,
LBL
Daryl raises good points though. If you have no other basis to be in Finland, other than having a job here, well, it kinda goes without saying that you would get the job before you came over.
A similar situation applies in respect of working in the US. One can not simply take a tourist visa poddle over the pond and get a job and change the visa when there. One gets the job first, then applies for the visa.
What are your qualifications in either of the fields of endeavour for which you claim proficiency?
As your girlfriend will tell you, Finns love paper qualifications and your chances of getting a proper, residence permit allowing, job with out them are slim in the extreme. If you were able to stay in Finland, on other grounds, and with no formal qualifications then perhaps going down the itinerant English teacher route might work, but if you need to get a proper job with wages an' all then paper counts.
A similar situation applies in respect of working in the US. One can not simply take a tourist visa poddle over the pond and get a job and change the visa when there. One gets the job first, then applies for the visa.
What are your qualifications in either of the fields of endeavour for which you claim proficiency?
As your girlfriend will tell you, Finns love paper qualifications and your chances of getting a proper, residence permit allowing, job with out them are slim in the extreme. If you were able to stay in Finland, on other grounds, and with no formal qualifications then perhaps going down the itinerant English teacher route might work, but if you need to get a proper job with wages an' all then paper counts.
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Hank W.
- The Motorhead
- Posts: 29973
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
- Location: Mushroom Mountain
- Contact:
Re: do I need to leave the country???
Well, then one cannot apply for a residence permit - as the *emmployer* is the one applying for the work permit/labour certificate. They don't give out carte blances.daryl wrote: Having said all of this, I can see no compelling reason (except perhaps a double processing fee) for not filing the application Stateside before leaving. Even if you have no specific job offer,
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
Re: do I need to leave the country???
Sorry mate. Beg to differ.
There is no question that the foreigner is the applicant for a residence permit of any kind (there's no such thing as a separate "work permit" anymore, BTW). The employer is, however, recognised by the new Aliens Act as a concerned party (= someone whose rights are affected by the matter) and has certain rights of appeal.
One problem that I am working on at the moment is the situation that arises when the authorities procure information directly from the employer and then use this to the applicant's disadvantage without asking for the applicant's views on the information. Technically this is a serious procedural error (failure to hear a concerned party) that gives the adminstrative court grounds to cancel the decision and return the matter for reconsideration.
What I was trying to explain earlier is that a residence permit application can be filed abroad based on the intention to live with a prospective spouse in Finland (include a statement from the spouse to this effect, of course). Such an application should also point out that the applicant is able to do certain types of work (and all the better if the applicant has actually been in touch with possible employers, even if no concrete job offer has emerged). This is obviously not a request for a "worker's" residence permit, but it tackles the problem of "declaration of intent before arrival".
None of this prevents an applicant from a country like the USA from then travelling to Finland, entering under visa exemption arrangements, and then filing another application of the same kind in Finland. If the applicant then secures a concrete job offer, this fact can be added to the grounds for the second application.
I know that "creative" solutions like this based on "multiple grounds for admission" drive the police and the Directorate of Immigration round the bend, but life is more complex than public administration and this procedure, which is honest at every point (arrival in Finland is genuinely motivated by a desire to visit the spouse while the original application is pending), has the advantage of bringing the whole of the applicant's case before the deciding authorities at the same time. I used to recommend this approach regularly under the old Aliens Act and AFAIK it was always successful, partly because the authority was committed to processing the applications in the order that they were filed.
In this case I think the most likely outcome would be a residence permit for the purpose of continued family life, including the unrestricted right to work.
Kind regards,
daryl
There is no question that the foreigner is the applicant for a residence permit of any kind (there's no such thing as a separate "work permit" anymore, BTW). The employer is, however, recognised by the new Aliens Act as a concerned party (= someone whose rights are affected by the matter) and has certain rights of appeal.
One problem that I am working on at the moment is the situation that arises when the authorities procure information directly from the employer and then use this to the applicant's disadvantage without asking for the applicant's views on the information. Technically this is a serious procedural error (failure to hear a concerned party) that gives the adminstrative court grounds to cancel the decision and return the matter for reconsideration.
What I was trying to explain earlier is that a residence permit application can be filed abroad based on the intention to live with a prospective spouse in Finland (include a statement from the spouse to this effect, of course). Such an application should also point out that the applicant is able to do certain types of work (and all the better if the applicant has actually been in touch with possible employers, even if no concrete job offer has emerged). This is obviously not a request for a "worker's" residence permit, but it tackles the problem of "declaration of intent before arrival".
None of this prevents an applicant from a country like the USA from then travelling to Finland, entering under visa exemption arrangements, and then filing another application of the same kind in Finland. If the applicant then secures a concrete job offer, this fact can be added to the grounds for the second application.
I know that "creative" solutions like this based on "multiple grounds for admission" drive the police and the Directorate of Immigration round the bend, but life is more complex than public administration and this procedure, which is honest at every point (arrival in Finland is genuinely motivated by a desire to visit the spouse while the original application is pending), has the advantage of bringing the whole of the applicant's case before the deciding authorities at the same time. I used to recommend this approach regularly under the old Aliens Act and AFAIK it was always successful, partly because the authority was committed to processing the applications in the order that they were filed.
In this case I think the most likely outcome would be a residence permit for the purpose of continued family life, including the unrestricted right to work.
Kind regards,
daryl
[/i]Hank W. wrote:Well, then one cannot apply for a residence permit - as the *emmployer* is the one applying for the work permit/labour certificate. They don't give out carte blances.daryl wrote: Having said all of this, I can see no compelling reason (except perhaps a double processing fee) for not filing the application Stateside before leaving. Even if you have no specific job offer,
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lightbluelotus
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:37 pm
I have made something of a specialism out of sponsoring "funny" applications. First we design the application strategy together, then the applicant gets all the nonsense from poorly-trained officials and I file a stack of formal complaints about bad service (important to keep this one in the public eye), and then finally these "funny" applications wind up being processed with entertaining and often enlightening results.
Have a good weekend.
daryl
Have a good weekend.
daryl
Hank W. wrote:i was just pointing out the technicality of the "worker's residence permit" - The tradition of byzantine bureaucracy as you know Daryl - it is by far easier to say "no" to "funny" applications.
