Difficulty with Citizenship by Declaration Application

[coastkid2]

I wondered if anyone else has encountered the difficulty I have had trying to file an application for Finnish citizenship by declaration, or may have any suggestions on what to do about it? I went to the Finnish Consolate in NYC, and was told that before paying and submitting the application for citizenship by declaration, they would submit an 'Inquiry' to Immigration in Finland, to verify that I was eligible to make the application for myself and my children. The NY Conlsolate told me I was eligible to apply for citizenship, because my father, although born in the US, was the son of 2 Finnish citizens (my grandparents), who retained their Finnish citizenship until the day they died, although they had relocated to the US when my father was born. I was told that my father (now deceased), even though no longer alive, could have filed an application for citizenship by declaration due to his Finnish parents. I was then told that because he was eligible to apply, I as his daughter, am eligible to apply. When NY contacted Immigration in Finland, they were then told that because my father's parents were born in Finland prior to 1917 when Finland became a state, they may be considered Russian citizens, and my father may thus not be considered a Finnish citizen! (In other words, all Finns born in Finland prior to when Finland became a state, are to be considered citizens of Russia)!!!!. The NY Embassy formally sent an inquiry to Finland on this issue (i.e. is it a government policy that all Finns prior to 1917 are to be considered citizens of Russia, not Finland) over 6 mo. ago, & to date, cannot get a response! Has anyone else run into this? What should I do? At this rate, the date to apply will come and go and I'll still be waiting for an answer!

[Mark I.]

(I'm not familiar with this subject at all, but one question came to my mind: Did your grandparents move to the US prior to (dec. 6.) 1917?)

Oh, I just noticed that you told your grandparents never gave up their Finnish citizenship, so apparently they moved to the US after 1917.

To me, it does not make any sense at all to somehow kind of change your grandparents Finnish citizenships afterwards to Russian ones! That would be against all logic.

(If they had moved before 1917, that could be tricky.)

[Hank W.]

Well, technically a person in 1917 having a passport of the "Grand Duchy of Finland" would be a "Subject of His Majesty, by the Grace of God the Emperor and Omnipotent of Russia, Czar of Poland, the Grand Duke of Finland etc. etc. etc."

Which though should have f* all to do with the technicality - they've been doing a few bureaucracy stunts listing a person born in Viipuri 1938 as "born abroad", but a few nasty publicity stunts usually got them back on the track...

[mrshourula]

If you search for my posts on citizenship by declaration, you will read that my husband and children just got their citizenship by declaration through my husband's father's status as a former citizen (he relinquished his citizenship in 1946 when he was naturalized as a US citizen).

My father-in-law was born in Finland in 1916 -- and at no time did anyone mention that he might be Russian (and as a veteran of the "Winter War," he would be so offended if anyone suggested he was!)


I did verify in advance that my husband's father was listed in the Population Registry (I emailed the Helsinki office and got a nice reply the next day saying that he was indeed registered).

I submitted my husband's declaration to the Los Angeles Consulate. They didn't do any advance inquiries - they sent off the forms to Finland immediately and we received our decision from the Directorate of Immigration in six weeks.

I think you have happened upon some bureaucrats who are overthinking the law. Think about it: under this logic the people who were involved in gaining Finland's independence (who I assume were all born before 1917) would then not be citizens?

It is actually a very simple law and if you meet the requirements (and can document that) then you can reclaim your citizenship. It actually states somewhere that you can't be denied citizenship if you meet the requirements. If I were you I would submit the uvi12, documents and fee and let the folks at UVI in Finland do their job rather than waiting around for a ruling. And maybe you should submit via the consulate in LA rather than NY. The LA people were very nice and efficient.

Kathryn

[otyikondo]

Things must be getting REALLY sticky in the U.S. (he remarked drily), with this rash of people leaning on grandparental ties to Finland that were severed by the parental generation who voted with their feet and got OUT of Finland.

Ah well, any port in a storm, I guess.

[mrshourula]

Do you read the US newspapers?

[Hank W.]

They're too rare for fishwrap. Anything happen?

[mrshourula]

Coastkid2:

This is an interesting article on citizenship after independence--and as it states there was a distinct Finnish citizenship by 1832 I would think it would be easy to trace the citizenship of your grandparents through records in the national archives (or whatever is the Finnish equivalent)

http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~aphamala/pe/issue2/al-tartu.htm

Anyway, I think you should just file your declaration as it may turn out to be easier for the UVI to make a simple decision about your individual case rather than try to make some broad general ruling on an old historical question.

[t.madison]

Just happened to catch your post during one of my infrequent looks at the forum. Interesting. I was wondering if others had this situation.

I submitted my declaration under similar circumstances the first week of December 2004. UVI was, for the most part, non responsive to letters, calls and visits in Helsinki starting in June (was told by the local police that it would only take several months). During this time, I received a letter where they tried to use the 22 year old law for losing citizenship to negate the application for declaration. If you read the laws carefully, that couldn’t fly. In September, I finally reached the person responsible for the decision. After trying to pin her down to when a decision would be reached, she said possibly a couple weeks. It is now November. After reading the lengths of time in other posts, I haven’t been too worried, but will definitely be making more calls in a week or so. If you want to wait for my decision before sending in a declaration, PM me with an email address where you can be contacted. If it is negative, it will definitely go straight to appeal. Otherwise, go ahead and submit. But be very sure your documentation is very, very complete with birth, death, and marriage certificates from your grandparents down to and including you.

[mrshourula]

t.madison:

It took only six weeks from the day my husband mailed the declaration to the Los Angeles Consulate until we received the approval letter from UVI. Two weeks later we received a letter from the Population Registry with the Finnish social security numers for my husband and minor children.

We were carefull to have all relevant documents (notarized uva 12 form, certified copies of US passports for all four of us - to identify us and support signatures on uvi 12 form, certified copy of husband's parents' marriage licence, certified copy of husband's birth certificate, certified copy of husband and my marriage licence, certified copies of children's birth certificates). The only thing we did in advance was confirm (by email) that my husband's father (born in Finland in 1916 and naturalized as US citizen in 1946) was in the population registry database (he was).

Maybe we were just lucky and submitted at a slow time but almost one year seems like a long time for the declaration process. Our experience seems to indicate that it can happen very quickly. That's why I didn't think coastkid2 should wait to see what happens with someone else's case before submitting his/her forms Obvously the time to process can vary greatly from case to case--and with no obvious reason as to why. Several other people on this forum mentioned it took 4-5 months for theirs to come through, which is what we were expecting.

[t.madison]

Mrshourula:

Personally, I agree. That is, if she wants to spend the money. Previously, I kept my personal opinion to myself. The deadline being the other issue, of course.

The length of time to get citizenship in your case probably is due to somewhat different circumstances. My grandfather left Finland in 1911 (grandmother in 1908), obtained US citizenship in 1919 (interestingly disavows any loyalties to the czar in his naturalization papers), and father born in the US in July 1917. All of this was before any population registry or Finnish citizenship laws (that I can find). This quandary and a 3/4’ stack of documents, plus all the Finnish holidays, the decision makers time away from work, plus other excuses has also had an effect on getting to the decision.

Hope that clarifies the issue.

[coastkid2]

I would like to thank everyone for their replies! Rather than continue to wait for the NY Consolate to get a response, I will try to proceed with filing the papers at the Los Angeles Consolate, as we relocated to Orange County, CA from NYC six months ago anyway. My grandfather was born in 1881 In Kauhava. He came to the US through Boston in 1899. I think that is before there was a Population Registry in Finland. I have the certified record of his birth from the Parish in Kauhava. My grandmother immigrated to the US in 1903 from Haapajarvi where she was born in 1880 & I also have the certified record of her birth. My father was born in 1909 in Gloucester, MA. My grandfather died in 1918 during the flu epidemic, and grandmoither died in 1946, in the US. Neither of them became naturalized US citizens. My father died in the US in 1992. I have certified birth certificated for myself, children, (plus certified death certificates) for my father, grandfather & grandmother. However, I don't believe that either my father or grandparents are in the population registry--will this be a problem with my application? Also, I was told in NY that I could file even though my father is deceased, because he could have filed an application to declare Finnish citizenship. I'm a little confused about how to show the connection to Finland on the forms--the form asks for my information & that of my children, but we are all US born. My father is US born. Were my father alive, an application from him would show the link to Finland but mine will not. How do I convey this information regarding how he would be eligible to file if he were alive? (The form only asks for information on you, children & your parents. I am also assuming that I can't file an application for him since he is deceased). I was also stunned when I was told that my grandparents would be considered Russian citizens and not Finnish citizens because they were born prior to 1917! It's all the more incredible because one of our cousins traced my grandmother's genealogy back to 1670 where the family lived in Haapajarvi for all that time, and I have documents for 3 generations behind my grandfather showing they lived in Kauhava since the mid 1700's! Additionally, one of the reasons mygrandfaher left Finland was because he believed he would be conscripted into the Russian Army along with other Finns, and he refused to fight for them! So, to now say he was a Russian citizen all along is just incredible! Any further suggestions would be very welcome!

[smilesalot]

Personally I would send them photocopies of all the documentation you have back as far as possible, with that information the researcher in finland can look up each of the names quickly to verify your documentation. If they need more they will ask you for it. Remember its a Bureaucracy so any and all references will strengthen your case.
I think its great your trying to get your citizenship also its cheaper when you do the whole family.(see mrshourula's comments)
Remember to call up for the office hours in Century city because their not regular as well as the problems with good old traffic going thru LA


smilesalot

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Triumph is just umph addend to try

[Mumintroll]

I have a quesiton regarding the citizenship by declaration procedure.

Once one has declared citizenship and received it, one's details must be entered to the population registry.

As it is perfectly possibly to live abroad and never have lived in Finland when getting citizenship by declaration, which municipality (i.e. which magistrate) is the new citizen registered in?

[smilesalot]

Speaking just from the US perspective I don't think it really matters, I know you can get your passport from any Embassy it just costs more. I guess all the extra paperwork they have to fill out.


smilesalot