Residence permits

[Hank W.]

They put you into a sauna and let you sweat it out.

[Rahela-Hanna]

Oh, hank. Once again, you've made me laugh: Hahahahaha.



Oh, sauna. Just to think of a sauna...I'm so cold right now, I could really go for a proper sauna, one of which I haven't seen in the last seven months, almost. Ah, just to think of it...!

*sighs rapturously*

[haahatus]

Daryl come on this is just bs. What's so wrong about the returnee policy . I still fail to see the racism in it. Altough the benefits and drawbacks of it can of course be argued about. I find your opinion as far fetched. How finnish are returnees really , especially after the su. Russian is the word here. Hey what if there is some or even alot of russian dna mixed in there?

There still must be a few genetically finnish people who are not finnish and don't any proven finnish ancestry. Maybe in West Russia?

Was the greencard system the Usa had still last year racist? The slots and divisions certainly made it less likely of people from different racial categorizations to have a chance.

I have heard native Americans get tax benefits in Canada? I don't know if it is really true but if it is would that be racism

I don't consider the returnee policy a problem. All who wanted to come are already here. I don't think people from India or China etc would have much against that because of the reasons.

[Rahela-Hanna]

I understand.

[sammy]

Daryl,

Again, I quite agree with most of what you said. The point of my previous post was rather to say that the wording of your posting was pretty provocative - and to open up the discussion a bit, to bring out some details of the terminology. Even though the returnee policy is a marginal issue (as haahatus said there's not an inexhaustible supply of Finn ancestors out there) it does indeed strictly speaking fit the "racial" niche as outlined in the UN convention. I never said it didn't. Also, I do agree with you that the policy is/was silly. That was not my point. The point was whether it makes sense to bluntly term it "racist".

To extend your beer-flavoured example: indeed it is true that the bars and nightclubs in Helsinki can not have policies that would prevent (let's say) African or Asiatic people from entering. Hooray with knobs on for that! But the clubs can (and do) deal out VIP cards, and it may be that the principles of doing so are not always very "fair" or indeed even formulated and written down. Also, having a VIP card in your pocket does not stop you from behaving like a complete a$shole inside the club. Especially if you happen to be otherwise in good terms with the guy who helped you get the card in the first place.

Now, of course I know the analogy is not completely accurate, as the VIP cards are not based on ethnic origin or on your DNA (I certainly hope so anyway!) - but my main idea here is that the existence of VIP cards in itself does NOT exclude the possibility of any particular non-card holder from entering the club if they wish. They just maybe have to go through the red tape of the queuing process. (Which incidentally is LARGELY there, ha ha... my choice of words was not intentional in my previous message but I do now see the joke ... although not everyone might laugh, I know.) Irritating and unfair it may be from the point of view of the poor guy in the queue, but as far as I see it it is a different matter altogether to ban the entrance of some particular group(s) based on e.g. their skin colour, or some other such factor.

I would call the latter downright racism. I wouldn't so readily call VIP cards "rasistic", because no matter what the grounds for obtaining one are - let's say it's for the friends and relatives of the owners - the system does not really exclude others out, even if it favours some. True, indirect and "invisible" racism should also be opposed, but if any disagreement remains between us I think it's just a question of how readily we'd use the R word and whether we allow any degrees of relevance in this discussion. To echo an earlier post, isn't this whole thing a marginal issue when it comes to practice?

In any case my prime motivation for partaking this discussion was (and is) the same as yours I guess... to clarify what racism actually is and what it maybe is not.

By the way, as for my "foreigner question"; of course there's no stigma, not even in my head, it's just that I've heard it from quite a few "foreigner" friends of mine that they occasionally get tired of being perceived as "foreigners" in Finland (or in any other country that they happen to live in, which is not originally their home c.) even after years and years of citizenship, learning the language, etc. In a similar vein, the word "racism" is occasionally used very lightly on this board and people like yours truly sometimes do find it used in a manner which invites to exchange a word or two about the subject - so don't you go mocking my Finnish motivation

[Hank W.]

This weekend's IL had in their weekend-supplement a long article with interviews of "who is segregated and where".

An interesting example - for me atleast - was a traditional-dressing Finnish romany woman in Sweden. Reading what she has to go through - OK, people in Finland aren't all too generous, except giving a few stares, but Sweden - the bastion of multiculturalism and flower-hatted aunties?

[Hank W.]

Sammy & Daryl, on the "racism" - the little boy who cried wolf?

[sammy]

Sammy & Daryl, on the "racism" - the little boy who cried wolf?

Yeah I think the discussion's fairly worn out nooooOOOOWWWW!

Anyway, sod the returnee policy for now, I'm off to SAUNA!

[chriscross]

Daryl,

To extend your beer-flavoured example: indeed it is true that the bars and nightclubs in Helsinki can not have policies that would prevent (let's say) African or Asiatic people from entering. Hooray with knobs on for that! But the clubs can (and do) deal out VIP cards, and it may be that the principles of doing so are not always very "fair" or indeed even formulated and written down. Also, having a VIP card in your pocket does not stop you from behaving like a complete a$shole inside the club. Especially if you happen to be otherwise in good terms with the guy who helped you get the card in the first place.

there was a incident in the town where i live (9000 population)

where a gypsy guy and his gypsy friend went to the night club,the "bouncer/doorperson" didnt let the gypsies into the club and said "your type are not wanted in this club"

30 miniutes later the gypsy came back with his gun and shot the bouncer and the other doorperson
1 Doorperson died!!!!

this was in finland

tragic yes and this can happen if you are racist




my 10cents worth!!

[Hank W.]

I don't think people who will go, get a gun and shoot a person are the kind of type I'd want in my pub either.

[chriscross]

good point

[Rahela-Hanna]

Man, and I'm a gypsy, too!!! And I have to say, I know where those other gypsies who killed that one doorman were coming from, when they suddenly wanted to kill him. We're all sick and tired of people hating on us so much, just because we're darkhaired and such, man!

[sammy]

there was a incident in the town where i live (9000 population)

where a gypsy guy and his gypsy friend went to the night club,the "bouncer/doorperson" didnt let the gypsies into the club and said "your type are not wanted in this club"

30 miniutes later the gypsy came back with his gun and shot the bouncer and the other doorperson
1 Doorperson died!!!!

this was in finland

tragic yes and this can happen if you are racist

my 10cents worth!!

Indeed, tragic... and yes I know this kind of discrimination happens in Finland. However I wonder if it really was institutional racism ("official policy of the pub") or individual ("an idiot bouncer")... the latter, I would say, is a much more prominent problem. When you think e.g. about the "advancements in Finland's foreign policy" that Daryl referred to, I occasionally wonder if the advancement can really account to much if some people (ie a percentage of Finns) still hold racist views and opinions of immigrants and so on. I mean, in particular cases involving clashes between individuals/groups and not in the "official" sense.

Whatever the case, I would probably steer clear from the said night club anyway, if it even remotely hinted at not welcoming gypsies or other "minority groups". Gun-wielding yoicks, whatever their ethnic background, are another matter of course.

edit: Rahela-Hanna, I kind of understand what you say, but however wrong the doorman acted I'm not so sure it justifies a killing... anyway, of all ethnic stereotypes here in Finland, the Gypsy one (that is, the negatively charged) is perhaps the most widely spread. Sad to say so

[Hank W.]

Which stereotype - the gypsies - by killing the doorman - just cast into stone in that village. So go figure. Is it cause or effect?

I've been turned back from a pub from wearing "wrong shoes". Or for "wearing jeans". Once me and a mate were turned back from a disco door because they had a "gay disco". Doesn't give me any excuse to go kill people? Yeah, I'm straight, I'll go shoot the gay disco bouncer?

IMHO, I'd establish a "romatheque" and *only* let in people in "national dress"...

[daryl]

How can they just tell if you have Finnish blood or not? Finnish DNA, I mean?

The policy in its purest form, as still applied to returnees from the USA, Canada, Australia etc. is based solely on ancestry. A DNA test is, of course, the best scientific proof of ancestry.

In a case in which records of ancestry have been lost or destroyed, or when no records were ever made, it would be possible in principle to support a claim for returnee status solely on technical evidence of this kind. My favourite example of this would be the issue of wild oats sown by Finnish sailors all over the world in the early 20th century. The children and grandchildren concerned would have not the slightest inkling of their Finnishness, but would enjoy privileges based solely on their genetic link to persons long since deceased in Finland.

A more interesting situation arises where a paper claim to returnee status conflicts with DNA evidence. Suppose the returnee's grandmother confesses that (despite the entry on the birth certificate) the Finnish sailor was not the biological grandfather after all, and a DNA test bears this out. What is the immigration policy value of the long-assumed connection to Finland in such cases?

Just try to engage anyone from UVI in a discussion of this kind and watch them run! javascript:emoticon(':lol:')

DNA testing is already used to prove kinship in immigration questions, though perhaps we should not get into THAT question in this thread.

daryl