FI-Interior Ministry wants to handle all immigration issues.

[network_engineer]

In English:

http://virtual.finland.fi/stt/showartic ... p=Politics


Comments?

WBR,

[daryl]

In English:

http://virtual.finland.fi/stt/showartic ... p=Politics

Comments?

WBR,

This news item is nothing new. There has been a territorial battle between civil servants over control of migration affairs for at least 20 years.

The efforts of the interior administration and of the police in particular to gain control of asylum seeker reception centres rely to a large extent on shortness of memory among the public and the political establishment.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s it was standard procedure to hold asylum seekers in police cells and remand centres (i.e. together with prisoners awaiting trial for serious criminal offences). This was arguably one of the worst and certainly one of the longest sustained infringements of Finland's international refugee and human rights commitments during this period. Year after year Finland was roundly criticised by various international human rights inspectorates (e.g. from the UN and the Council of Europe) responsible for overseeing the application of human rights instruments, including conventions against torture (you heard me correctly - torture). At least some of those asylum seekers were subsequently granted asylum or exceptional leave to remain because they had been tortured in their countries of origin. In other words, Finland had been torturing victims of torture who sought asylum in Finland.

And year after year the government department that was responsible for this situation (guess which one) claimed that it did not have the money to do anything about it - which is another way to say that it considered the problem to be one of low political priority.

More recently the interior administration has suggested that CCTV and listening devices should be installed in reception centres and that the staff of reception centres should be required to divulge information that is given to them in confidence by residents and detainees.

I think it is also worth considering how poorly the interior administration discharges its current functions. For many years the aliens administration tried to argue, quite hopelessly, that work and residence permit matters fell outside the scope of the Administrative Procedures Act, and were instead "police matters". Even after the Parliamentary Ombudsman had comprehensively refuted this ridiculous view, it was felt necessary to insert a section in the Aliens Act confirming that the Administrative Procedures Act applies to the permit administration. We are here talking about simple principles of good governance, such as asking a concerned party whether information is true before acting on it. Even nowadays many officials at local police stations and even at the Directorate of Immigration remain completely ignorant of some of the most fundamental rules governing administrative procedure in Finland. This is hardly surprising, as they have had little or no training in these matters.

Then there is the little matter of how long it takes for this branch of public administration to make its decisions... How long did sy have to wait for his citizenship application to be approved?

I am not here saying that the Ministry of Labour is any better, though I would argue that its general outlook is far more humane. Also the Ministry of Labour consults immigrants and foreigners over the policy issues that affect their lives. The Interior Ministry has to be dragged, (kicking and screaming) into the conference room for this purpose, and then their representatives often sit dumbly in a quiet corner smiling a lot and mouthing platitudes.

In my opinion there is much to be said for a separate ministry of immigration, as exists in Sweden. Otherwise I would assign these matters to the Ministry of Justice - probably over its own protests.

daryl

[network_engineer]

Hi Daryl et al,

Thanks for the reply. OK, I've edited the post and the link shows correctly. But my question was, why does the hyperlink not work and why do we have to include the whole URL???

Hmmm, on the torture front, if I seem to recollect correctly, there was something about drugging some family before deporting them etc. Do you remember those details? If wonder if anything did come out of the investigation, or if the concerned [authorities] just got off with a slap on the wrist. Any ideas?

It would be interesting to know details of such behaviour [such as those that you mentioned] and I am wondering if they are indeed documented anywhere publicly accessible.

Having read your post, I agree completely and probably the Ministry of Justice would indeed be the second best alternative after a separate Ministry to deal with immigration issue. But it seems that the Interior Ministry isn't going to let go!

Somehow the Ministry of the Interior is not among my favorites.

But then, I guess, those who are affected [the aliens, of course] have no voice in the matter! Or then, do they? And how?

WBR.

[Jussi]

In English:

Here

Comments?

WBR,

Thanks for the reply. OK, I've edited the post and the link shows correctly. But my question was, why does the hyperlink not work and why do we have to include the whole URL???

If you hit quote you can see how I did this.

Hope this helps

[daryl]

Hi Daryl et al,

Hmmm, on the torture front, if I seem to recollect correctly, there was something about drugging some family before deporting them etc. Do you remember those details? If wonder if anything did come out of the investigation, or if the concerned [authorities] just got off with a slap on the wrist. Any ideas?

It would be interesting to know details of such behaviour [such as those that you mentioned] and I am wondering if they are indeed documented anywhere publicly accessible.
WBR.

Nice example. As I recall, the interior administration had some difficulty understanding why the case that you mention was in any way shocking.

Well, the UN Human Rights Committee took a dim view of the matter at its meeting in Geneva on 18 October 2004:

69. Sir Nigel RODLEY said that the Committee had been informed by the Finnish League for Human Rights about a Ukrainian family who had been given a four-day deportation order from Finland, following which the husband, who had protested against his family’s return, had been involuntarily medicated before being sent back to Ukraine. The Committee had been informed that several similar cases had been known in Finland. Such cases must be addressed not only under the issue of deportation, but also under the issue of the prohibition of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. They could call into question Finland’s compliance with international medical ethics. He asked to what extent involuntary medication was practised, and what role was played by doctors in such procedures.

Referring to the question of medical ethics, the National Authority for Medicolegal Affairs was far from pleased with the supine way in which medical staff took instructions from the police in this case:

http://www.teo.fi/Hakemistot/h14/14_k.htm

On the other hand, the Authority did not mention this specific case in its annual report, which also appears on the web in English, even in the section of the report that deals with human rights.

The Finnish government's response to the report of the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CPT) also makes interesting reading (partly because the "competent" ministry does not feel that such responses are important enough to be worth paying for a competent translator):

Results of the inquiries carried out into the case of deportation of a Ukrainian family described in paragraphs 35 and 36 of the report (paragraph 37).

The Police Department of the Ministry of the Interior has clarified the issue thoroughly. In the case in question, the police has, after first trying to enforce the decision without success, requested official assistance from the health-care personnel in order to get a medical evaluation of the state of health of the family members and possible measures required therefor taking into account inter alia the safety of the flight. In connection with the attempts to enforce the decision, the father and mother of the family have tried to damage themselves and the children have tried to jump to the ground from the entrance of the plane. A nurse has been contacted during the case, who has years of experience inter alia of the treatment of persons who have lost their liberty and deported and she has been asked to assist in the implementation of the deportation. The nurse in turn has requested instructions from a doctor in her work place. The nurse has then, in accordance with the instructions issued by the doctor, given sedative medication intravenously to the parents of the family.

Also the National Authority for Medicolegal Affairs has prepared an account on the case regarding the deportation of the Ukrainian family. In accordance with the National Authority for Medicolegal Affairs, the doctor did, in the particular case, not have sufficient information to order medication without a personal examination of those subject to deportation and no grounds required in the provisions existed to medicate the persons subject to deportation against their will. Therefore the National Authority for Medicolegal Affairs has issued a written warning to both the doctor and the nurse in question.

The case regarding the deportation of the Ukrainian family is also being handled by the Parliamentary Ombudsman.

I fancy there is a strong element of "the suspect repeatedly hit my boot with his head, your honour" about this official response.

daryl

[dampa]

I need to confess, sometimes the acts of authorities in Finland really pain me to the stomach. Well I do know for sure, if one of them steps on my tail, they will for sure see an HUNGRY LION that same day

Anyways, what is wrong with the UN Human Rights Committee??? Why can't they step in to make this baron "Kari Rajamäki" and his followers understand a thing!!!! This is 2005 for God's sake---I know he was trained in that era where foreigners are meant to be believed to be criminals. And what does he gain by taking over immigration? Now I know, flush all non-Finns out and inject us all with NaOH or something like that...

Anybody know that man, tell him he is he getting old and he needs to enjoy the rest of his days on earth

[network_engineer]

Hi!

Does the public at large [and especially those who are affected by this manner of behaviour and attitude] have any voice in the matter! If yes, how?

I am not sure if anything would come out of the expressed desire by the Interior Ministry, but I would be scared for sure.

At this point, I am really wondering, how is the SDP even tolerating this representative. Sometimes his comments and his intent are really shocking.

WBR.

[Oombongo]

usually there is atleast one or two Kari Rajamäki version 1.01 in the public buses.

[network_engineer]

Hi!

Missed commenting this: So, at last, it was a "mere" warning that was issued. So, a slap on the wrist, nothing more?

If only the courts and the higher authorities took a more severe view of the whole episode, and handed over sentences that were more in line with the offence, and to *all* involved, the Interior Ministry might not want to deal with the aliens any more!!!

WBR.

[dampa]

Does the public at large [and especially those who are affected by this manner of behaviour and attitude] have any voice in the matter! If yes, how?

Well I dont know about that but I have always known that if such comes my way, I will damn roast they ass

[network_engineer]

Hi all,

I apologise for this post, but please, rather than imagined assumptions of self-might, I'd rather see a correct and constructive response to voice this issue, if indeed there is a way for those affected to have a voice in the matter.

Thanks.

[dampa]

sorry if that disturbed u but to my own knowledge, I havent heard or known of any

[sinikettu]

This news item is nothing new. There has been a territorial battle between civil servants over control of migration affairs for at least 20 years.

I think it is also worth considering how poorly the interior administration discharges its current functions.

Even nowadays many officials at local police stations and even at the Directorate of Immigration remain completely ignorant of some of the most fundamental rules governing administrative procedure in Finland. This is hardly surprising, as they have had little or no training in these matters.

I am not here saying that the Ministry of Labour is any better, though I would argue that its general outlook is far more humane.

In my opinion there is much to be said for a separate ministry of immigration, as exists in Sweden.

daryl

There have been some very public verbal fights between Interior/Labour civil servants recently.. ..Ministry of Interiors turn to flex muscles.

Note...
The line in Bold...and add the point..that they seem to believe they dont need training.
When they moved/centralised the department to Malmi Police station..from where did they recruit staff and what training was given?

I would add a note that Vantaa retains it's own immigration department and the last time I went there..to change a permanent residents permit to my new passport..I was treated efficiently and like a Respected Valued Customer not in anyway that could be considered un-friendly.

[daryl]

Even nowadays many officials at local police stations and even at the Directorate of Immigration remain completely ignorant of some of the most fundamental rules governing administrative procedure in Finland. This is hardly surprising, as they have had little or no training in these matters.daryl

Note...
The line in Bold...and add the point..that they seem to believe they dont need training.
When they moved/centralised the department to Malmi Police station..from where did they recruit staff and what training was given?

I would add a note that Vantaa retains its own immigration department and the last time I went there..to change a permanent residents permit to my new passport..I was treated efficiently and like a Respected Valued Customer not in anyway that could be considered un-friendly.

Vantaa is a different police district, of course, and it processes permit matters independently.

What I would like to stress is that there is much more to good service than merely smiling and behaving in a civil manner. I attended a police station on Tuesday of last week in which a friendly, smiling deputy police commissioner issued an administrative decision orally (which is possible, if not advisable), gave a patently inadequate justification for that decision orally (but at least discharged the duty to give a justification - no quarrel there) and then failed to "attach" appeal instructions to the decision (which was clearly a breach of the Administrative Judicial Procedures Act).

This was, perhaps, at least a slightly more correct procedure than had been followed at an earlier stage of the same ongoing case by the police station in question or by the Directorate of Immigration (which infringed section 21 of the Administration Act at one point). However, it was nevertheless a clearly unlawful administrative procedure.

The system of administrative procedure in Finland is entirely logical and in many ways quite simple, but it requires both training and experience to apply in practice. The case that I just referred to has already generated two complaints to the Attorney General and an appeal to the administrative court, all based on maladministration. Because of the inability of interior administration officials we are not yet even examining the substance of the application! Fortunately there is no real urgency in the matter. Indeed the Aliens Act has largely been framed to avoid urgent situations.

At a seminar in Jyväskylä years and years ago I recall asking Interior Minister Mauri Pekkarinen about the competence of local police stations to process administrative matters. Naturally I received no satisfactory answer to my question, nor did I expect one. This is a matter of the content of basic police training.

Personally I suspect that nobody joins the police force in order to sit behind a desk doing administrative work, and that this is part of the problem. Bearing in mind that the State Administrative Offices and City Administrative Bureaux are also subordinate to the Ministry of the Interior, it must be considered at least partly surprising that increasingly complex permit administration matters continue to be processed at local police stations. Part of the justification for the Directorate of Immigration as a specialist agency is to get the substance of more complex cases out of the police stations and embassies abroad, but even the nuts and bolts of regular administrative procedure also often seem to be too much for these agencies (including more junior time-servers at UVI) to manage.

daryl

[daryl]

Hi all,

I apologise for this post, but please, rather than imagined assumptions of self-might, I'd rather see a correct and constructive response to voice this issue, if indeed there is a way for those affected to have a voice in the matter.

Thanks.

One of the problems here IMHO is that people tend to think democracy and justice merely happen with no effort and are achieved once
-and-for-all. This is not the case. Democracy and justice are the fruit of ongoing processes that sometimes require the most strenuous application. It seems to me that the kaikki-mulle-heti generation has some problems in coming to terms with this reality.

I have been broadly content with the rate of progress in the area of immigration and immigrant rights. For evidence of this, take a look at publications on the subject in the 1980s (e.g. Matti Pellonpää's doctoral thesis "Expulsion in International Law" or "Oikeutta Ulkomaalaisille" published in the late 1980s) and compare them with the situation nowadays.

The trick, I think, is to focus one's efforts economically on undesirable aspects of the system that can be changed within a reasonable time frame (3-5 years) and in which change will help to promote a shift in thinking about other, more general questions as well.

In all of this the real poison, IMO, does not come from officials or institutions, but from those who would say that nothing can be done about whatever the perceived passing problem is. The fact is that plenty has been done and continues to be done about such problems.

I am sure that the day will come when Finland's immigration authorities engage in full and open consultation with immigrants about the merits and demerits of various policy proposals. There is already much more consultation than there used to be. We simply have to keep pressing the point that this remains one of the few areas of government in which regular public consultation channels urgently need to be established and standardised.

daryl