Belief structure

[Drekly]

I've been registered here for nearly 2 years, have read a bit on and off but never had any particular reason for posting before, I could use a little help now please.

I moved here from the UK just over 2 years ago to live with a divorced Finnish woman, various up and downs along the way, but nothing of any real consequence - I'm still here.

I know next to nothing as to how religious beliefs work here, I know that along with her family she belongs to the Lutheran Church, but to my knowledge, beyond paying whatever the extra tax percentage is, the actual church only plays a part for 10 visits as a 15 yo followed by Confirmation and the only reason for further visits to the church are for more family confirmations. Presumably marriage and funerals too, but neither have been an issue up to now.

As far as I'm aware this family has had no experience of the death of a close relation.

Yesterday her sister's son (early 20s) died tragically, clearly extremely distressing all round, but one comment really threw me - she said "and he's my Godson" as if it made the situation worse if at all possible. I'd assumed that the title of Godparent was no more than an honorary title and didn't carry the original responsibilities of taking care of a child's "spiritual development" and to take on the parenting role if something happened to the parents and also the only reason for making a blood relative a Godparent would be due to a lack of friends to offer the title to.

So basically I'm asking "what do Finns believe?" I don't mean the "official" line, I mean the day to day stuff. Is it somehow worse that she's a Godparent rather than "just" an aunt? What does death mean to Finns?

I know that it's going to take a very long time for things to return to any sort of normality, probably never for her sister and the death of someone so close can change the outlook of some people, sometimes for a short period, sometimes it can change the whole way they live their lives.

Now is certainly not the time to attempt discussions with her, so could anyone give me a brief overview of how Finns view their religion and the issue of death?

[Vallu]

So basically I'm asking "what do Finns believe?" I don't mean the "official" line, I mean the day to day stuff. Is it somehow worse that she's a Godparent rather than "just" an aunt? What does death mean to Finns?

First of all, I am sorry for what happened.
Then, I am not Finnish, so you probably don't need my point of view.
But still, I can say that I don't think that in your partner's current situation religion really matters. Death is the same everywhere and it hurts everywhere, especially if it's about such a close relative.
I think her statement "He was even my Godson!" was just coming out in a terrible moment, when she was probably distraught and overwelmed by pain and mourning. I don't think that it's worst because he was her Godson.....I think it's just bad because she was his aunt. Don't know..... I think she was and for sure still is too bad for even realising what she was saying.

[Drekly]

First of all, I am sorry for what happened.
Then, I am not Finnish, so you probably don't need my point of view.
But still, I can say that I don't think that in your partner's current situation religion really matters. Death is the same everywhere and it hurts everywhere, especially if it's about such a close relative.
I think her statement "He was even my Godson!" was just coming out in a terrible moment, when she was probably distraught and overwelmed by pain and mourning. I don't think that it's worst because he was her Godson.....I think it's just bad because she was his aunt. Don't know..... I think she was and for sure still is too bad for even realising what she was saying.

A viewpoint is a viewpoint from whoever it's from, no problems with that, but I do differ with yours in some respects. The main one being that in the case of a tragic loss (especially to a family that have no experience of losing their nearest and dearest) religion can be a place that some look to to find solace or some meaning to events and to an extent that depends on the core beliefs. I know that both my upbringing and experiences shape my own outlook, consequently I have to be very careful what I say so as not to appear callous when I'm not.

I had considered before posting whether her comment was just something borne out of grief or not but it is something that I need to know the Finnish perspective on - and even then one Finnish viewpoint could differ from hers. Originally the family is from Jyväskylä if there is a regional difference to any that read this.

[EP]

religion can be a place that some look to to find solace or some meaning to events

Well, not people who usually don´t seek solace in religion. So I don´t think going to church or starting reading The Bible would help. One has to grieve when one has to grieve. But of course one CAN talk to a priest if one thinks that it would help in some way. Usually the priest who performs the funeral service also wants to talk about the deceised, sort of to get to know him and to be able to make a better funeral speech. S/he may also ask if the family has any special wishes. I cannot imagine that the parents in this tragic case could have coherent wishes, so maybe your wife could tell about the boy to the priest? And go with her sister to the funeral office. Her support and help in practical matters might be a great help.

It is very usual that a godparent is a blood relative, usually your sister or brother. And a godparent usually spends more time with the kid than other aunts or uncles. There is also the old "godparents take over if something happens to parents". I remember how flattered I was when my godson´s mother (a friend, not a relative) said that they had thought long who they trust most and chose me + husband. But we certainly have not given any spiritual guidance. We have taken him to boat trips, amusement parks, movies, we have been baby-sitting, and of course bought gifts.

When an old person dies s/he is often very ready to die, even expects and hopes for it. Then funerals can be fun: seeing all the relatives, giving little rememberance speeches (often funny) and having a good meal. But not in cases like this, not when a young person dies. I can imagine that the whole family is in terrible pain.

[Drekly]

Well, not people who usually don´t seek solace in religion.

Thanks for the reply, this sort of sums up my question, I don't know whether Finns do things just because they are traditional or because of beliefs. It is so important for the children to be confirmed (well this family's anyway) but with no explanation why. So I really don't know whether there is an underlying religious reason or if it's just inflicted on the kids because the parents had to go through it. Why pay a voluntary tax for something you don't need in your life?

My partner is staying with her sister for a few days so I'm as usual totally out of the loop, but she is very practical in organizing things, so will no doubt already be making mental lists of what needs to be done.

And thanks for the Godparent info, I understand the general concept but until coming to Finland have never known anyone that either had or was one.

[Hank W.]

I don't know whether Finns do things just because they are traditional or because of beliefs. It is so important for the children to be confirmed (well this family's anyway) but with no explanation why. So I really don't know whether there is an underlying religious reason or if it's just inflicted on the kids because the parents had to go through it.

Well, it is more or less tradition. A confirmation school was traditionally seen as a step to "adulthood" - in the olden days one could only get married after going through that - nowadays its more or less a tradition and I guess the parents feel the kids benefit of the moral issues pondering.

[sinikala]

It must vary from case to case as to the role of the godparent.

My wife's nephew (wife's sister's son) was recently christened. His god parents are friends of the child's parents. But we learned a month or so later that if something should happen to the parents then my wife and I would be the ones getting the kid, even though we aren't the godparents.

I have no idea about the social development side of things, so I won't even guess at why your partner said "and he's my Godson".

As an empirical observation... godparents (or at least the women) here in Finland seem to take their job somewhat more seriously than those back in the UK, admittedly not many people I knew back in the UK had kids and I haven't seen my godparents in 25 years (if they are still alive) so I may be way off target here... but I have lost count of the number of times that I've heard Finnish women say that they are going to see their godchild, or they are going to their godchild's birthday party etc. etc.

[sammy]

Why pay a voluntary tax for something you don't need in your life?

That's a good question - personally, I do not really share some of the basic tenets of the Lutheran church... the most obvious minus points for me come from minor details such as "lack of faith in any sort of afterlife" - so partly at least it's a tradition thing (and thus coincidential, not consciously "chosen")

However, without wishing to whip up any discussion whether it makes "sense" to have religious beliefs or not, or whether some other arrangements would suit the matter at hand better I still do think that it's not necessarily a question whether I ever need the services of the church in my life or not. Even if I have my reservations about certain details, I do respect the underlying humanitarian values of the church and if I look at the situation realistically... well, I'm not rich and never will be but still I'm rather bl*ody well off in general. So I do not really mind at all if some of my earnings end up in the hands of the church so to speak.

It may not make sense from a purely rational viewpoint but then again, if one only looks at things from that perspective then what sense would it make to help anyone except yourself?

[nomad_alien]

This is the same thing I have seen. for Finns the "godparent" role is much more serious than anywhere else I have been. They seem to really take it seriously and is actively involved in the kids life. I know I have/had godparents but I have no idea who they are/were or where in the world they are right now. Neither can I recall any time spend with them ever. This seems to be more common among most of my foreign friends.

[sammy]

Incidentally, as me & GF were chosen (and agreed) to become Godparents for my brother's second child, only then I actually learnt about the existence of such a thing as kummilusikka!

(an image here) - so, you see, you're supposed to have engraved the time of birth, the weight & length of the baby into the spoon...

I never had one but they're all the rage nowadays it seems! Have they been around a long time? Have I missed something? Anyway we bought one as a present for the "wee lass" as well (a different model, the one in the pic is a bit tacky I think )

[priki]

Oh, the spoons have been there for a long time. I got one, but my baby brother did not (dunno why), he got a silver picture frame instead, with his picture in it (and weight and height and all).

It is interesting to hear, that Finnish people seem to take godparenting seriously. I've been thinking just the opposite, but I'm only thinking of the religious part. For me it seems that people mostly think the financial side, not the spiritual guiding part. But, I'm a born-again, so I think more strictly perhaps..

[sammy]

Oh, the spoons have been there for a long time. I got one, but my baby brother did not (dunno why), he got a silver picture frame instead, with his picture in it (and weight and height and all).

It is interesting to hear, that Finnish people seem to take godparenting seriously. I've been thinking just the opposite, but I'm only thinking of the religious part. For me it seems that people mostly think the financial side, not the spiritual guiding part. But, I'm a born-again, so I think more strictly perhaps..

Hmm yes, I guess it depends. It might also depend on how one defines "spiritual guidance" (I can almost see the surprise on the little gal's face when, on her 5th birthday, instead of a doll she receives some books by Seneca and Marcus Aurelius from me )

I can't really remember my godparents providing any money to me, rather something else like -occasionally- a book or some toy when I was a nipper. But of course those also count as material wealth... however the line may be thinly drawn... I guess it's a kind of "guidance" that I'm not all that keen on eating rabbits, as I got "Watership Down" from my godparents when I was 7 or so

Btw I only just realised that I used the words "length" of a baby, instead of height. Perhaps my logic was that since babies spend quite a bit of time horizontally...

[sinikala]

Btw I only just realised that I used the words "length" of a baby, instead of height. Perhaps my logic was that since babies spend quite a bit of time horizontally...

You were right first time, Baby's height is usually referred to as length - as you say they are usually horizontal, so their height would be something like 15cm.

[Montana]

I definitely think Finnish women take the responsibility much more seriously than Finnish men do. I always hear my Finnish female friends and colleagues talking about their godchildren, getting special gifts for their birthdays and Christmas, etc. But I never hear men talking about their godchildren.

My Finnish husband is the godfather of his nephew. He went to the christening, gave the traditional engraved spoon gift and did his part in the ceremony. The boy will be six this winter and I can say that the ceremony was the last obvious thing he's done as a godparent. He occasionally addresses the boy as his godson in birthday cards, but the gifts are always toys & never religious … and we would have given him gifts anyway since he's our nephew … the same as we do for his two younger brothers (for which we are not godparents).

Incidentally, I was never chosen to be the godmother because we were only engaged at the time (nevermind that we were already planning the wedding) and I'm not a member of the Church of Finland (even though my family is Lutheran & I was baptized Lutheran). The godmother is the mother's best friend. That's her choice but it was very hurtful for me.

We had our daughter baptized and chose the godparents to be my husband's sister (the mother of his godson) and my two brothers. Since I'm not a member of the Finnish church, it was quite a hassle to get them to allow us to be married in the church here. We met the same problems for our daughter's baptism. The church was totally opposed to me choosing my American & Lutheran brothers to be her godparents. We were strongly encouraged to choose godparents that were members of the Finnish church. The funniest thing is that my ancestry is half-Finnish and my maiden name is Finnish, but anyways the real issue was probably that my brothers and I aren't on the Finnish church registry and paying taxes to the church.

Regarding my husband's sister being one of our daughters godparents, she took part in the ceremony and gave the traditional engraved spoon, but she hasn't done anything special as a godmother since then. She signs birthday cards to my daughter as kummi-täti (godmother-aunt), and that's about the extent of it.

By the way, I was told when we had our daughter's christening that the godparents don't have any legal rights to the children. And if we wanted to make sure our daughter would have legal guardians in the event of our death then we should make a will.

As a side note, I have really found the whole choosing godparents thing to be a very hurtful ritual. I mean people always get hurt. I was hurt that I wasn't chosen to be a godparent with my husband for his nephew. My brother-in-law was hurt that he wasn't chosen to be a godparent with his wife (my husband's sister) for our daughter - sadly, we did that as payback for them not choosing me. And my brother's wife was hurt that we didn't choose her to be a godparent of our daughter … I felt horribly about that because she's a wonderful person, but I couldn't according to the Finnish church because she's Shinto (Japanese non-christian religion). Someone always gets hurt and they don't easily forget.

[zam]

According to the "rules" in the babtism the child becomes a member of the congregation. At least two godparents must be nominated for the child. - That's the minimum, but AFAIK it is customary to have a couple as sylikummis (i.e. the ones who hold the baby in his/her arms during the ceremony) and then a varying number of male and female godparents. Two of the godparents must be confirmed members of the evangelical lutheran church. Also persons who belong to other churches who accept the babtism of the evangelical lutheran church (e.g. anglicans, orthodox, catholics) can be nominated as godparents.
The idea is that the godparent will have a special role in child's life by being a safe adult, a friend and a listener. The website of the Finnish evangelical lutheran church says e.g. that the best gift a godparent can give to his/her godchild is time spent with the child.