Päiväkoti visiting a church

[superiorinferior]

Easy Science and history deal in facts. I would of course object to my my child doing both subjects if they taught that UFO's are a fact and so was King Arthur and the knights of the round table.

While I am far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, from a so-called Creationist.... Evolution is still a theory, not a fact.

Remember while replying to this that my kids are doing the non-religious thing too.

I think you might still emotionally be living in "Kentucky," not in Finland. Religion here is a bit lower-key and less um, in-your-face as it is in the States.

[littlefrank]

'Evolution is still a theory, not a fact. '

Well actually apart from the tongue in cheek comment about the zoo I've never mentioned Darwin's 'Theory' of evolution, but I was talking about science in general for kids, you mix one chemical with another, how car engines work etc.

Kentucky never been there myself, so wouldn't know what it's like, but on evidence from the past I wouldn't like to teach there, but kentuckian education might have evolved since then.

However I think I'd rather have my daughter coming home and telling me our relatives are monkeys, than the result of incestuous relationships going back to the offspring of Adam and Eve, hey maybe that's why Kentuckians ... sorry cheap shot.

[raamv]

Heya folx,
I think that this is way too exxagerated on taking kids to church. EP is absolutely right in saying that most kids are taken there to be shown the architectural marvel of these buildings, a respsect for our past, etc more than relegion.
Let the kids learn about the buildings more than learnig about relegion!!
I dont see a problem in this cos as a parent, if you want to install faith in your child, its up to you!! Most kids learn their beliefs and faith from their parents more than anywhere else!!!
/Raam

[isaluba]

Wow! How ignorant of me for assuming I was asking a simple question. I have no problem with my child learning about different religions. In fact I think it is a very interesting subject from a cultural perspective. I do, however, have a problem with my daughter visiting a Lutheran church on semi regular basis to sing songs or drink juice. If this were just a simple field trip to see the architecture of the building ( which is a bit of a stretch for a 3 year old!) why is there no effort being made to visit a mosque or a synagogue? I don’t care if it has been done forever here in Finland. This is not a harmless tradition, but in fact one of the problems contributing to the intolerance of difference here in Finland. When my husband and I decided not to have a christening for my daughter but instead opted for having a ”Welcome to our family” party, my husband’s parents had a fit. His mom thought the party would be a disaster if there wasn’t a priest there. Yet, they never go to church. I doubt they even prey. It was simply because of tradition. So hypocritical! The last thing I want to teach my daughter is to do something just because others are doing it without question.

[Rosamunda]

'Personally I cannot understand why anyone can be "against" teaching religion but "for" teaching science or history.'

Easy Science and history deal in facts. I would of course object to my my child doing both subjects if they taught that UFO's are a fact and so was King Arthur and the knights of the round table.

'They talked about things like tolerance and sharing etc'

Tolerence for Gays and people who have an abortion etc.

Religion is not about facts? The fact that my kids share a classroom with Hindus, Moslems, Jews, Catholic Christians and lots of Lutherans is a fact (and yes, they all go to school in Finland). Why should my kids be denied the right to learn about those religions and better understand the different cultures of the kids they play with. I do not go to church, I was not married in a church and my kids have never been baptised.... yet I strongly feel that denying my kids an education about religion and culture would be forcing them into a state of ignorance.

Ever read a book about String Theory littlefrank? That's "science" at its best!!!!! Thousands of academics who "invented" a theory of fundamental physics just so they could sit in ivory towers and do research at the expense of the taxpayer

Back to isaluba.... maybe you should ask the paivakoti if you can go with them and see for yourself what the visit is all about. Going back to my previous question.... if you refuse to let your daughter go, how do you intend to explain to her your reasons for that. IMO, she is entitled to any explanation, even if she is only three. Otherwise she will feel she is missing out on something without understanding why, and will blame you for not letting her be "part of the fun".

[superiorinferior]

So hypocritical! The last thing I want to teach my daughter is to do something just because others are doing it without question.

So as a parent, you're going to tell her what to do, when, how and if to pray (and to whom)... and she will do it without question.

If you let her be too "free-minded," you might have a little trouble when she's 13.

[EP]

If this were just a simple field trip to see the architecture of the building ( which is a bit of a stretch for a 3 year old!) why is there no effort being made to visit a mosque or a synagogue?

Well, I said earlier that if there were more mosques, they would be taken to a mosque, too. That was not quite what I meant. I should have explained that mosques in Finland are in ordinary apartment houses. There is nothing to see. If they could go there at prayer time they could see how moslems pray, but at prayer times it is moslems only. And there is only one synagogue in Helsinki, and that is in Fredrikinkatu or thereabouts, anyway in the busiest central Helsinki. Nobody wants to go with 30 3-year-olds into central Helsinki.

I do, however, have a problem with my daughter visiting a Lutheran church

Why? What is so bad in Lutheranism? I have divorced myself from church ages ago, and so has my now adult son. My daughter hasn´t, she says that she wants to get married in a church. When they were little we travelled quite a lot. They have lit candles in Orthodox and Catholic churhces here and there, they have kneeled in Buddhist temples, and visited even a couple of Hindu ones. What does it matter what nomination or religion the building is?

I was an exhange student in US where religion really has 99 % more importance than in Finland. The family made me go to church every Sunday (+ Sunday school), and it was not a Lutheran church. I didn´t mind, it didn´t hurt me, and in Finland I could go back to my worldly ways.

This is not a harmless tradition, but in fact one of the problems contributing to the intolerance of difference here in Finland.

Sorry, I beg to have a different opinion.

I would disagree with my child being taken to the Lenin museum in Tampere as well

You would not take your kids to a kitch museum that was founded just for fun? There is nothing political in it, and your kids WILL be taugh what communism is about. And that happens in school.

[LilWabbit(unsubscribed)]

Ideological indoctrination of some sort is inevitable by the parent or by the school due to the simple fact that every opinion or curriculum draws on some kind of ideology -- whether it be secularist, religious, atheist, socialist, liberalist, naturalist, fascist, dadaist or doodooist. Fear of exposing one’s child to any ideological indoctrination other than one's own is in itself an authoritarian, biased and obscurantist ideology which has little or nothing to do with fact nor wisdom. It would also imply a complete and utter isolation of our children from the society at large.

Most parents should rest assured that, statistically speaking, children adopt their parents worldview more often than not despite their constant exposure to the cacophony of creeds spewing out in any given society. And this in spite of the fact how fantastic or “unscientific” their own worldview may be. What more if the parents are convinced that their ideology is based on fact and science. They should in fact entertain negligible fear of their kids becoming deluded by alternative fictional and superstitious worldviews. If we fear that the exposure to other viewpoints, cultures, religions and ways of life confuses our children, we not only unwittingly impart prejudice, but also lack of confidence in their own beliefs. Are their own views really so weak that they cannot stand any comparison and exposure to alternatives?

Of course kids must be indoctrinated into something, so let’s make sure that 'the something' is as wise and constructive as we can possible provide based on each of our own limited understanding and judgment as parents. Let us also in the meantime gradually educate them to learn to compare different worldviews intelligently in order that they may make up their own mind later in life when they are equipped with more mature judgment.

Just as an atheist may be allergic to religious concepts and symbolism in kindergarten or at school, a religious parent may complain about the irreligious and materialist ingredients of the very same curriculum. Neither religion or irreligion are inherently incompatible with science but represent alternative philosophical assumptions underlying established fact and proven theory. Neither can be proven or disproven by science as they represent philosophical viewpoints which way transcend the ken of scientific scrutiny. Also, science and religion are not inherently contradictory, but unfortunately they are all too often made out to be in conflict by both irrational religious zealots and avowed naturalists. Both are fanatics in their own right.

Let it also be reminded that the biological theory known as Darwinism, inferred from Darwin’s claims, is a proven one, supported by ample and well-documented factual evidence. Darwinism has managed to explain the mechanism of evolution in a convincing and verifiable manner. However, Darwin's grander claims (implicitly atheistic) about the origins and direction (or absence of it) of evolution are often mistaken as part of his biological (read: scientific) theory. The grand claims of Darwinism remain nothing more than philosophical conjecture. They remain both unproven and unprovable insofar as any internally consistent philosophical theory about the universe cannot be proven or disproven.

To creatively apply Karl Popper’s falsifiability principle, God or His non-existence are both undetermined by fact, whether the fact be gathered by Charles Darwin or Mr. McGoo.

[EP]

yet I strongly feel that denying my kids an education about religion and culture would be forcing them into a state of ignorance.

With that I agree. There is also the "forbidden fruit" thing. I strongly suspect that if I had shielded my kids from that little amount of religion that they met when they were small, it might have become a tempting alternative for teenagers. Heavens, my at one time rebellious daughter might now be some wacko Newly Born, or maybe she would live in the Moonist monastery in Pitäjänmäki...

[EP]

Sorry, I mix up. It is a Hare Krishna monastery. The Moonist thing slipped, because a class mate of my son turned into Moonist.

[mel]

just to say that before your daughter started päiväkoti, you had forms to fill in, on which they ask you about your religious belief...therefore if you had written down that you are agains't going to church, they would not take your daughter there.