phd in italy or in finland? a very big dilemma !!

[kidofturku]

hello every one,

i have a phd offer from both italy and from finland. i am really unable to decide which one to choose and its killing me from inside. i really do not want to regret later. i request you to please guide me through the process. some facts are as follows.

1) as i have said i have offers from both finland (university of turku) and from italy (university of parma). in italy and in finland i have funding for 1 year initially.
2) both the research topics are interesting.
3) financial position: in finland i get 1400 euros compared to 1250 in italy.
4) food is awesome in italy .
5) i am planning to get married next year. i think in finland my wife could atleast study if do nothing else.
6) in italy the phd is for 3 years where as in finland it is for 4 years.

i have added all the points i know of that could be a deciding factor in this. i really really need your thoughts on this so that i could take a decision which i do not regret later.

thanks for your time and patience.

[rinso]

7. The weather in Italy is better

[Hank W.]

8. Theres more snow in Italy...

[interleukin]

What is the native language of you and your wife? If neither one of you knows any Finnish, but you do know a language similar to Italian, that may be a very strong argument for going for Italy.
If you do not know Finnish:
a) your wife may have to study something she is not really interested in because not much is available in English (a lot is, but maybe not what she is interested in).
b) her chances of finding a part-time job while she is studying are terribly slim
c) your chance of finding a part-time job while studying are terribly slim
d) you can not really expect a job after graduation if you have not learned Finnish

BUT if you are willing to learn Finnish then maybe Finland will be a fantastic experience for you. I know it has been for me. I am working in academia and there are many foreign PhD students here. Some are finding Finnish spouses and settling down, others live in a happy expat bubble and do not learn the language. These people may find it hard to find jobs after graduation, but of course doing your PhD without knowing a word of Finnish is no problem.

Good luck whatever you choose,
/interleukin

[sinikala]

hello every one,

i have a phd offer from both italy and from finland. i am really unable to decide which one to choose and its killing me from inside. i really do not want to regret later. i request you to please guide me through the process. some facts are as follows.
3) financial position: in finland i get 1400 euros compared to 1250 in italy.
4) food is awesome in italy .

Cost of living in Finland, e.g. food can be much higher in Finland than in Italy, food in Finland can be good, but on a salary of €1400 per month, you won't be able to afford to eat out much anyway.

5) i am planning to get married next year. i think in finland my wife could atleast study if do nothing else.

I hope your wife has some income of her own - your €1400 divided between two of you will mean you will need to live like undergraduate students.

6) in italy the phd is for 3 years where as in finland it is for 4 years.

In Finland the target can be 4 years, a motivated few do it faster, for most I've met it is more like 5 years, and depending on the subject area, there can be high dropout rates, this can be due to both negative reasons - (not enough productivity) or positive reasons... (like the student gets offered a real job before graduating... and as the main objective is usually to get a good job, the qualification is just a means to an end... then many do decide to take a job if one is offered.)

c) your chance of finding a part-time job while studying are terribly slim

Ph.D. students are usually salaried or get a bursary. A Ph.D. requires dedication beyond the 08-16 that many here are willing to put in, a part time job would be an unwelcome distraction IMHO not something a Ph.D. student should be looking for.

[sinikala]

3) financial position: in finland i get 1400 euros compared to 1250 in italy.
4) food is awesome in italy .

Cost of living in Finland, e.g. food or eating out can be much higher in Finland than in Italy, on a salary of €1400 per month, you won't be able to afford to eat out very often.

5) i am planning to get married next year. i think in finland my wife could atleast study if do nothing else.

I hope your wife has some income of her own - your €1400 divided between two of you will mean you will need to live like undergraduate students.

6) in italy the phd is for 3 years where as in finland it is for 4 years.

In Finland the target can be 4 years, a motivated few do it faster, for most I've met it is more like 5 years, and depending on the subject area, there can be high dropout rates, this can be due to both negative reasons - (not enough productivity) or positive reasons... (like the student gets offered a real job before graduating... and as the main objective is usually to get a good job, the qualification is just a means to an end... then many do decide to take a job if one is offered.)

c) your chance of finding a part-time job while studying are terribly slim

Ph.D. students are usually salaried or get a bursary. A Ph.D. requires dedication beyond the 08-16 that many here are willing to put in, a part time job would be an unwelcome distraction IMHO not something a Ph.D. student should be looking for.

[Hank W.]

I remember you were non-EU? Theres the "income requirement" at http://www.migri.fi that hass to be fulfilled before entry by the non-EU spouse. (maybe get job is not income). so theres that too if you're both non-EU...

[interleukin]

Ph.D. students are usually salaried or get a bursary. A Ph.D. requires dedication beyond the 08-16 that many here are willing to put in, a part time job would be an unwelcome distraction IMHO not something a Ph.D. student should be looking for.

Yes, I agree. Been there, done that. Was merely pointing this out, especially if the OP is planning to get his wife here to come and study full-time. It will be hard to make one PhD student salary last for two people.

[kay30]

Published either today or yesterday:

Suomessa on köyhiä tutkijoita. Tutkijoiden palkat ovat huonot. Yliopistotutkijoiden palkat ovat 2000 - 2400 euroa kuukaudessa. Palkka on selvästi pienempi kuin muissa länsimaissa.

Lisäksi Suomessa on vain vähän töitä tutkijoille ja siksi monet tutkijat ovat välillä ilman työtä. 80 prosenttia yliopistotutkijoista tekee työtä sopimuksella, joka kestää vain lyhyen ajan. Suomessa on ilman työtä vajaat 400 tohtoria. Moni tutkija aikoo muuttaa pois Suomesta köyhyyden takia.

If I get the gist of this, in Finland the pay is $hitty for researchers (2000-24000E/month) and less than the rest of Western countries. And they are on short term contracts. And there are something like 400 doctors without work (or inadequate work?). And they move away. Native speakers: please correct me if I got this wrong!

I guess my point is that if it were me, I would also choose the place by thinking about what would lead me to the most connections and the most prospects AFTER my PhD is done. I don't know if there is a glut of PhD's in Europe as there is in the U.S. I read somewhere that something like 10% of PhD's in the US actually get a good job at a good university.

[sinikala]

Published either today or yesterday:

Suomessa on köyhiä tutkijoita. Tutkijoiden palkat ovat huonot. Yliopistotutkijoiden palkat ovat 2000 - 2400 euroa kuukaudessa. Palkka on selvästi pienempi kuin muissa länsimaissa.

Lisäksi Suomessa on vain vähän töitä tutkijoille ja siksi monet tutkijat ovat välillä ilman työtä. 80 prosenttia yliopistotutkijoista tekee työtä sopimuksella, joka kestää vain lyhyen ajan. Suomessa on ilman työtä vajaat 400 tohtoria. Moni tutkija aikoo muuttaa pois Suomesta köyhyyden takia.

If I get the gist of this, in Finland the pay is $hitty for researchers (2000-24000E/month) and less than the rest of Western countries. And they are on short term contracts. And there are something like 400 doctors without work (or inadequate work?). And they move away. Native speakers: please correct me if I got this wrong!

I guess my point is that if it were me, I would also choose the place by thinking about what would lead me to the most connections and the most prospects AFTER my PhD is done. I don't know if there is a glut of PhD's in Europe as there is in the U.S. I read somewhere that something like 10% of PhD's in the US actually get a good job at a good university.

It's comparing apples and oranges.

The text in Finnish depends on what you call "tutkija" ... in Finland many post-graduate students are called "researchers", many are salaried in the wageband you mentioned above (€2 - €2.4k) and their tax percentage is correspondingly low.

For comparison purposes, in Britain the equivalent post-graduate student will get about £12k per year = €1320 / month, it is tax free, but still way less than Finnish postgrads, so in that respect Finnish post graduate students are extremely well off compared to UK students at the same stage of their career, I was extremely envious of my Finnish counterparts who used to get about double my UK grant in the late 90s.

In Finland, Finnish post-doctoral "tutkija" are perhaps less common than in other countries (mainly because there is not a big jump in salary in Universities upon getting the Ph.D.). The jump in salary here comes when reaching professor (over €5k per month), but between getting a Ph.D. and becoming professor there can be 20 years of low wages and short term contracts - i.e. no job security either.

At least in the UK a post-doctoral "researcher" can get well over €3k per month and there are many more permanent positions (lectureships) in UK universities than in Finnish universities with incremental salary improvements before reaching full Professor, so in that regard ... those Finnish researchers are badly off, but I don't think that's what the article is talking about.

[kidofturku]

thank you very much for all your reply's. it was very very informative.

i am non-eu and my language is not similar to italian either. so, in that sense moving t italy or finland does not make much of a difference.

i do understand that phd is for ones who are highly motivated. me doing a part-time job is out of the question.

i will make every effort to learn the language of the country that i choose to move.

in the italian university there are no english language courses. at the university of turku i can see some courses which are offered in english and could be interesting for my future wife.

I remember you were non-EU? Theres the "income requirement" at http://www.migri.fi that hass to be fulfilled before entry by the non-EU spouse. (maybe get job is not income). so theres that too if you're both non-EU...

could you please throw some light on this hank. i think in finland a phd is considered a full fledged job. correct me if i am wrong. though i have a grant now it will be converted to a salary later. in that case i will be paying taxes too. so, i do not see any reason why i could not bring my non-eu spouse to finland.

[Hank W.]

Well, if you are a "student" or not The "income requirement" for a working person is 900 vs. 500 for student; and 630 for spouse/month. And was that after taxes... so that 1400 is quite on the edge... (found under "family" there.)

[raamv]

could you please throw some light on this hank. i think in finland a phd is considered a full fledged job. correct me if i am wrong. though i have a grant now it will be converted to a salary later. in that case i will be paying taxes too. so, i do not see any reason why i could not bring my non-eu spouse to finland.

But Since you are still a "student", you are still in Finland as being "temprorary" in terms of domicile..which means, that Only after you get a permanent job will you be granted "permanent residency" as in domicile. So beware of this..I am not sure how it works in Italy, but i ve heard that your salary is dependent on the kind of degree that you have even if you dont have anything to do with your Phd..so take that into consideration and find out more from that end too..

[raamv]

Oh yes,
and laying off people in Finland is a 1000 times easier than in Italy..

[kidofturku]

But Since you are still a "student", you are still in Finland as being "temprorary" in terms of domicile..which means, that Only after you get a permanent job will you be granted "permanent residency" as in domicile. So beware of this..I am not sure how it works in Italy, but i ve heard that your salary is dependent on the kind of degree that you have even if you dont have anything to do with your Phd..so take that into consideration and find out more from that end too..

thank you raamv for the post. the thing is i am not looking for any permanent residency in finland at this juncture. all i want is to bring my would be spouse for the amount of time i do my phd in finland. if its temporary for the time being then let it be.

after my phd if i was able to secure a permanent job in finland then i could get permanent residency or else i would be more than happy to go back to my country.

i am not sure if you have misread my question or not. but i am not working in italy now and i am not staying in finland either. i have got a phd offer from both italy and from finland and i would like to choose either one of them.