Furthering Education in Finland for an Immigrant

[mr.carver]

So I move here to Finland in November 2007 when I married my wife.
I've known my wife along time, but the marriage was sudden, and I moved here less than prepared.

I came here from the States and frankly my education is rather poor on paper.
I never finished High School, instead getting a GED.
I studied for a short time at a trade school for automotive mechanics, but that is the extent of my formal studies.
Now I'm in Finland, and I seem to have run into a brick wall, it seems I'm stuck at my current level of education and I'm not thrilled with the prospect.

I talked to the Ministry of Labor some months back about what I could possibly do to correct this, if there was anything I could do to possibly get myself into some high education, even if that meant completing Lukio here.
Unfortunately the Ministry of Labor just kind of looked at me funny when I brought that up.
I can't blame them, but it is still frustrating for me. With my current level of education alot of doors are closed to me.

I hate the idea that because I moved here when I did, before completing some more schooling in the States.
That I might be at a virtual standstill in my education.

Making this topic is somewhat difficult for me, as no one at my age wants to admit they are technically uneducated.
But still, rather than continue being so, I thought I might ask here if anyone has some ideas on how to proceed.

The only thing I've come up with at this point is to move back to the States, finish some school there, then move back here.
I'm hoping there are better options than that.

[AldenG]

How are you doing with the language? That is probably the biggest hurdle blocking low-skilled employment. (That, and the ongoing recession/depression.) If you could get comfortable in Finnish, you might be able to find some back doors into decent career paths. Without Finnish, the options are a tiny fraction of what they would otherwise be.

Even in Finland, there is room for a clever and motivated person to bypass the conventional career paths. From your writing in this topic and the one on vanilla extract, you sound like you may be more clever than your low level of education would ordinarily suggest. And you seem to have the humility and unconventionality to suggest something like finishing lukio here, a notion that apparently short-circuited the wiring in a typical bureaucrat's brain.

If you overcome this problem in Finland, it's going to be due to persistence, unconventional thinking, personal likability/relationships, and a positive outlook. But the biggest thing you could do for yourself first is to learn enough Finnish to converse easily. Then, who knows? You might end up self-employed. Or there may be things you know about or in America that could be useful to someone. You might end up in some kind of sales or importing.

You already know it won't be easy. So even though you've got some deficits, try to think about what assets you may have that an average person in Finland doesn't. You may come up with some kind of service that's not currently being provided or niche that's not currently filled.

The first bureaucrat you talk to, or the fifth, doesn't necessarily know the information you need. There was recently a thread here about opportunities for foreign adults to complete their basic education. So that's not excluded, either. So don't take the first "no" you run into as definitive, about anything. Just be flexible and learn to keep an eye open for opportunities that others either don't see or aren't motivated enough to follow up on.

[AldenG]

And you might meet some other unconventional people if you look into English-language theater, comedy, etc. If there is anything about you -- looks, accent, size, something -- that fits a "type," that might give you an opportunity to try breaking into that kind of world. I guess it's a lot harder being in Kotka than a place like Helsinki. Then again, there's less competition.

[mr.carver]

Thank you for your time responding to my post with your well thought out replies.

How are you doing with the language?

I'm doing fairly decent in my finnish language skills as it stands, likely better than I would give myself credit for.
I have a decent knowledge of the grammar and a moderate vocabulary (most of which is nature oriented, as I've learnt a fair amount of my vocabulary from my step-mother)
I attended a 5 month finnish language course last year, but either the pacing or teaching style became abit much during the 3rd month or so.
The class was 5 days a week, 6-8 hours a day. For the first couple months I was able to retain a fair amount of the teaching, but at some point the focus of the classes swung too heavily towards the grammar of the language, which while I will admit fully that I do need to learn, I felt was being taught too quickly.
I was left with a feeling of having the rug pulled out from under my feet so to speak. Cover one grammar case, running into exceptions to the case, getting a grasp of that, only to have more exceptions thrown at me in the same hour, leaving me at the end of the day utterly confused on concepts I previously thought I knew.

I addressed this issue to the Ministry of Labor, and was informed of a second class I could take which addressed my main concerns about the previous class. My concerns being that the long days were simply too much for me to absorb at once, and that the pacing of the class might have been faster than I was comfortable with.
I was informed of a class starting last April, that covered different material, and was only 3-4 hours in length, and spanning a 10 week period.
So I signed up for the class and returned the papers to the worker at MoL.

Some time went by and a week prior to the classes starting (and mid-month after bills had been paid) I received a letter informing me that I been accepted into the class. Unfortunately, due to my tight budgeting, this proved to be ill timing for such a letter to arrive.
With my previous class I was informed well ahead of time of my acceptance, so when no letter had arrived weeks earlier, I paid all my bills and budgeted our food allotment accordingly. Thus leaving us with nothing to spare for the cost of the bus pass from my residence to the location of the school.
This frustrated me abit, but a friend of mine offered me the money required for the bus pass until next month when I could pay him back.

The first day of class, we receive the same materials I had already received from the previous class, the same teacher, and same 6-8 hour days. The exact opposite of what I was informed the class was.
So I withdrew from the class. MoL got mad at me for this, and cut KELA benefits for the duration of the course.
In all honesty I likely should have just stuck with the class, but at that point (and even now) I viewed it as one more source of frustration among a growing pile.

Since then I've been self studying and looking into private courses.

If you overcome this problem in Finland, it's going to be due to persistence, unconventional thinking, personal likability/relationships, and a positive outlook.

I'm inclined to agree with you.

I am under no delusions that my hand will be held through the process of looking up the required information and locating the correct people to contact. I also don't expect MoL to hold my hand and find work or school for me.
I am however, starting to wonder what exactly the MoL does.

I've had the recent pleasure of visiting to MoL's Immigration Office to discuss my situation and get some ideas on how to proceed.
The pleasure was mostly attained from being unable to locate a single person within said office who could speak English.
Now I don't expect everyone in Finland to speak English, not even in MoL, KELA, or any other Government agency.
But if I were to locate an English speaking office worker, the one place I would expect to find one, would be in the Immigration Office.
Instead, what I found was a young Estonian boy who spoke Russian and barely spoke finnish.
He seemed kind enough tho, and I'm sure he is very helpful to the 700 or so Russian immigrants living here.

I guess it's a lot harder being in Kotka than a place like Helsinki. Then again, there's less competition.

That was my initial thinking as well when I first moved here.
I've always had a knack for finding unconventional jobs, even to the point of running two businesses myself back in the States, so I wasn't at first daughted by the low level of English speakers in Kotka. I'd find something.
And I did. My first couple months here I quickly landed a work practice at a local English speaking kindergarten, which I quiet enjoied, when my contract was up around the time I entered my first finnish course, I considered looking into it again after I was done with my classes. However in introspection, I decided against this course of action, as while it kept me busy, it seemed to only do just that. Keep me busy without solving anything I was attempting to fix.
I've kept my eyes open for any possible jobs I might be able to fill in the area. But most that I am qualified to work tend to of course crop up in Helsinki.
As such a large amount of my time and efforts have been directed towards finding a way to move to Helsinki.
I do keep an eye out for possible work locally still, but I've basically come to accept that without a higher level of finnish language skills, my chances of finding employment here are minimal.

But to return to the original purpose of this topic. One of my largest concerns at the moment would have to deal with furthering my education, I'm already at a disadvantage language wise, I don't feel I'd be able to work a job that required finnish primarily for some years to come due to my neurotic nature.

I thought there may very well be a topic buried somewhere here that addressed the situation I have brought up here, I'm glad you recalled it.
Is this by chance the topic? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38943

[AldenG]

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of.

[Pursuivant]

Mmmpphh.. yeah... Kotka - at least its not a Nowheremäki. Helsinki indeed would have places like http://www.eiraedu.fi you can get yourself degree finishing your high school, either in English or then getting yourself slammed into the Finnish system. Now of course a GED means you "passed" which means you can try and get into the vocational courses like at http://www.ael.fi (don't know if and whats up in your area). As for the education goes, even you get a degree in the USA they'll look at it, wipe their bum in it and still say "no speak, no hire". What comes to MoL as you noticed its either you do what they tell you to or you cry, its non-negotiable. Its the unemployment office - unemployed people go there because they have to. Never heard anyone gotten any job out of there unless you're this long-term unemployed and need to go in for interviews to get a 3 months stint as the sexton. Now AEL has vocational courses all right, so those would be aimed at you - but to get in you need one or two things... one is a good wolloping of luck, the second one... that language thing. And in Kotka knowing even a smattering of Russian will help, especially finding those unconventional jobs... like in CA you need to speak Spanish too.

Oh, and dealing with MoL and KELA do not "think". It is not allowed - what you think or want or what is intelligent or would be feasible is irrelevant. MoL and KELA do the thinkin and they think only and always of how to invent a way not to pay you.

[Pursuivant]

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of.

Naah, thats a pisstake. We've got better, older threads.

[Pursuivant]

Just browsing, Kotka seems to have a few places http://www.teakoy.fi/ and http://www.ekami.fi/ but as with all Mol trainings it says Koulutus on kohdennettu maahanmuuttajille, joilla on koulutukseen ja tutkinnon suorittamiseen riittävä suomen kielen taito (yleisten kielitutkintojen taso 3). => so until you can read and understand that, you ain't gettin no training.

But EKAMI seems to have basic and advanced Finnish and vocational training as well http://www.ekami.fi/index.asp?link=644 Which probably are the likes you were on already. You know, lather, rinse repeat. These seem to be MoL approved. Don't then get yourself too exited mind you this. If you ain't getting jack for money now, if you on your own volition sign up for a school as on a degree course thats not MoL approved, then MoL erases you from the book of life and you become a student. And students get jack from jack. So if I was you I wouldn't be dissing that kindergarten job...

Now once you get your language skills up to par, theres then all kinds of apprenticeship trainings and such, so its not really a question of missing papers as not everybody here has such fancy documentation always either.

[Vesper]

did you receive a GED certificate? I find it hard to believe that you cannot apply to a UAS. Basicly, they only want to see the final certificate awarded. I cannot quite understand it myself, but they only wanted to see my high school diploma certificate that was handed out when I graduated. That's the final certificate. It baffles me as in the US, no college or university would ever care to see that piece of paper. In the U.S., they only want to see transcripts, scores, etc. A GED diploma is about equivalent to a high school diploma. I remember when I asked admission what they meant my the final certificate, it was like a headache trying to get a straight answer. I do not think they understand the american system. If you are interested in applying for UAS, then give it a try. Let the admissions office see your certificate and decide if it;s acceptable. I'm not an expert about GEDs, but I know someone who got into Berkley music school with a GED. I just find this odd.

'Eligibility for studies at UAS depends on completing the Finnish Matriculation examination or upper secondary examination, European Baccalaureate, International Baccalaureate or Reifeprüfung examination, vocational qualification of three years or more in duration, a non-Finnish qualification or studies equivalent to these qualifications. A vocational qualification of less than three years in duration gives eligibility to a corresponding field of study. Eligibility for UAS studies in a corresponding field of study may be broadened into general eligibility for UAS studies.'

'UAS only accept final certificates awarded by national and regional bodies granting educational certificates. Therefore various other documents such as "Testimonials", "Statements of Results", "Examination Results" or "Result Slips" are not considered as official certificates. Please note, that if you have a scratch card, it is advisable to attach the card to your final certificate.'

[Tiwaz]

did you receive a GED certificate? I find it hard to believe that you cannot apply to a UAS. Basicly, they only want to see the final certificate awarded. I cannot quite understand it myself, but they only wanted to see my high school diploma certificate that was handed out when I graduated. That's the final certificate. It baffles me as in the US, no college or university would ever care to see that piece of paper. In the U.S., they only want to see transcripts, scores, etc. A GED diploma is about equivalent to a high school diploma. I remember when I asked admission what they meant my the final certificate, it was like a headache trying to get a straight answer. I do not think they understand the american system. If you are interested in applying for UAS, then give it a try. Let the admissions office see your certificate and decide if it;s acceptable. I'm not an expert about GEDs, but I know someone who got into Berkley music school with a GED. I just find this odd.

'Eligibility for studies at UAS depends on completing the Finnish Matriculation examination or upper secondary examination, European Baccalaureate, International Baccalaureate or Reifeprüfung examination, vocational qualification of three years or more in duration, a non-Finnish qualification or studies equivalent to these qualifications. A vocational qualification of less than three years in duration gives eligibility to a corresponding field of study. Eligibility for UAS studies in a corresponding field of study may be broadened into general eligibility for UAS studies.'

'UAS only accept final certificates awarded by national and regional bodies granting educational certificates. Therefore various other documents such as "Testimonials", "Statements of Results", "Examination Results" or "Result Slips" are not considered as official certificates. Please note, that if you have a scratch card, it is advisable to attach the card to your final certificate.'

You might want to notice that Berkley is not in Finland. If they let people in without graduation certificate, it in no way affects Finland. They only wanted to see your high school diploma because that confirms that you graduated. No graduation, no spot. Beyond that, most likely you were enrolled to some kind of course which was tailored for immigrants it is no surprise they only wanted to see graduation paper.

For Finn, you have to apply, often pass a test and your graduation paper must have high enough average. Competition you see. More applicants than spots.

As for GED, better ask if it is considered sufficient. I have my doubts on it.
Following is with assumption it is not...

From what I understand, OP did not finish what Finland would consider "vocational qualification of three years or more in duration". He might get into UAS into some automotive related line IF, and that is big if, he can get his graduation papers to the office from his automotive trade school.

No graduation, no chance.

After that issue for him is language. There might be courses he needs to pass in English, but just as well there might not.

If not, passing that school without good grasp of Finnish is same as challenging elephant into tug of war.

Honestly, I do not think he should right now put his goals into UAS level.

[Vesper]

Like I said, it does not hurt for him to try applying to UAS. Does not mean he has to put all his eggs into one basket. Any wise person would have multiple options in the 'works'. Sure, there is a possibility for rejection, just like everyone else who applies for Residence Permit for all sorts of grounds. The only way they truly know is if they apply. Sometimes educational equivalents do not translate easily across borders. For example: UK A-level mathematics and American mathematics, no UK University will state on their website or in an email what the exact equivalent of A-level mathematics is to the American standard. One must apply in order to have their transcripts evaluated.

Not all UAS base their placements for Finns on the combination of graduation score and entrance exam score. Like for example, TUAS only bases final admissions on entrance exam scores. But TAMK takes in half based on that combo admission scores. Only for the English degree programs to my knowledge.

[AldenG]

but at some point the focus of the classes swung too heavily towards the grammar of the language, which while I will admit fully that I do need to learn,

I think there is a stage where some amount of discussing grammar is necessary or at least very helpful, but eventually you pass that stage. After that, knowing the names and formal rules/explanations is rarely necessary. I like to say that I knew more grammar back when I knew less Finnish. Study of grammar is one way, but not the only way and not a sufficient way, of reaching a conversational level of fluency in Finnish. One of the most valuable things it does is just to reduce your disorientation about all the many forms that words can take. You could still eventually learn them merely by example and practice just the way Finns did.

There have been earlier discussions in Kielikoulu about how language learning works for children and for adults who have progressed beyond a certain level. Basically you are imitating and revising and extending entire phrases, not constructing them from scratch. Most of the time you don't first think of a word and then think what form to put it into. Instead your mind fetches a ready-made phrase in which all the parts are already properly formed and then you tweak it a little by substituting a different word here and there. You make new sentences by analogy with old sentences (or substantial pieces of them) and it has very little to do with understanding grammar the way it is taught. In fact you may not know the words in English or at least you may have trouble thinking of them on the spot. That's when you know you're actually thinking in Finnish.

For instance, your mind doesn't really store missä, mihin, and mistä as different forms mikä. Instead, each form has a meaning of its own and a context and a set of feelings about how it works with other words. Or at least a native speaker's mind originally works. Later they're taught to see them as different forms of one word in school, but that's long after fluency in the language is reached. (One of the best examples of this is miksi in the sense of why, which has evolved from a form of mikä to its status as a formally independent word.) These independent meanings are quite analogous to where, whither, and whence in English -- although fewer and fewer people have any intuitive feel for those words any more.

All this is to say that fluency does not depend on mastering grammar. Just keep listening and learning proper phrases and sentences, and a day will come when it will suddenly be easy to access what you already know and expand it with new usages. If grammar helps you get there, that's great. But if grammar remains opaque and frustrating, do not despair. Just keep focusing on phrases.

Kaksi miestä pidätettiin aamuyöllä epäiltynä törkeästä pahoinpitelystä. Two men were arrested in the wee hours on suspicion of aggravated battery. ("gross badly-treating")

Poliisit pidättivät aamuyöllä kaksi miestä... The police arrested two men in the wee hours...

Those two examples contain at least 75% of all you will ever need to know about using the verb pidättää, "to arrest." Nearly all the other hypothetical forms are of only academic interest, and most sentences are a variation on one of these two examples. And so it goes with most of the language. Although I happen to find grammar rather interesting, or used to, it's easy to find examples of people who put way too much effort into learning the rules to the Nth degree. You can see examples right in the Kielikoulu Forum. Thus their learning ABOUT Finnish substantially slows down their learning to SPEAK and UNDERSTAND Finnish. They mistake the one for the other.

[Pursuivant]

Those two examples contain at least 75% of all you will ever need to know about using the verb pidättää, "to arrest." Nearly all the other hypothetical forms are of only academic interest,

Jos poliisilla on pidätysvaikeuksia aamuyöllä, voiko hän kusta kadulle?

[Tiwaz]

Like I said, it does not hurt for him to try applying to UAS. Does not mean he has to put all his eggs into one basket. Any wise person would have multiple options in the 'works'. Sure, there is a possibility for rejection, just like everyone else who applies for Residence Permit for all sorts of grounds. The only way they truly know is if they apply. Sometimes educational equivalents do not translate easily across borders. For example: UK A-level mathematics and American mathematics, no UK University will state on their website or in an email what the exact equivalent of A-level mathematics is to the American standard. One must apply in order to have their transcripts evaluated.

But should he go for studies where he has no hope in hell to progress at any reasonable rate? That is the big question. He has very little academic studies behind him. And my personal impression on US basic education is not very high...

I personally would recommend to him to try aikuislukio or similar system to get his papers in order, then think of educating himself further. He can do this while working as courses start in the afternoon.
Kotka was the place right?
http://www.kotkankoulut.fi/Homepage

Not all UAS base their placements for Finns on the combination of graduation score and entrance exam score. Like for example, TUAS only bases final admissions on entrance exam scores. But TAMK takes in half based on that combo admission scores. Only for the English degree programs to my knowledge.

It can depend on multitude of factors. But either way, you still need to have proper graduation papers to show even if they do not look at numbers. Scoring points varies greatly. In some lines, you get extra points for being sex which is grossly underrepresented in this area. You might get more points for good number in graduation paper for certain subjects and so forth.

[Rosamunda]

but at some point the focus of the classes swung too heavily towards the grammar of the language, which while I will admit fully that I do need to learn,

I think there is a stage where some amount of discussing grammar is necessary or at least very helpful, but eventually you pass that stage. After that, knowing the names and formal rules/explanations is rarely necessary. I like to say that I knew more grammar back when I knew less Finnish. Study of grammar is one way, but not the only way and not a sufficient way, of reaching a conversational level of fluency in Finnish. One of the most valuable things it does is just to reduce your disorientation about all the many forms that words can take. You could still eventually learn them merely by example and practice just the way Finns did.

There have been earlier discussions in Kielikoulu about how language learning works for children and for adults who have progressed beyond a certain level. Basically you are imitating and revising and extending entire phrases, not constructing them from scratch.... Most of the time you don't first think of a word and then think what form to put it into. Instead your mind fetches a ready-made phrase......

IOW... a lexical approach. This *new* approach to language acquisition (IIRC Michael Lewis was one of the first to popularise it in the teaching/learning of English as a foreign language) seems to now be part of mainstream language tuition in TEFL. Apparently it has not yet been incorporated into FFL (Finnish Foreign Language) teaching methods and materials. BIG shame. Technically I think it is possible, even though the two languages are quite different linguistically.

I am really really glad that (one of) my sons has got into Helsinki Culinary school to do his lukio studies. I think his Finnish language skills will advance in leaps and bounds now that he is in a less academic context and will actually be using Finnish to learn skills in a practical hands on way. Sitting in a FFL classroom for hours / years on end has not produced great results (progress has been painfully slow). Now I am fairly confident that after 3-4 years he should be able to take his Matriculation exam in Finnish with a reasonable result.

So... for the OP, I think learning something in FInnish (anything: woodwork, handicrafts, car maintenance, horticulture, evening courses, summer courses) will help you with your Finnish. Then think about the Eira high school programme (which has an excellent reputation).