Ruoan kehitysmaa

[Jukka Aho]

This should really go to Culture & Cuisine, but since it’s in Finnish, I guess it’s better utilized as a reading exercise:

• Ruoan kehitysmaa (Jari Tervo)

[kalmisto]

Pitkään saa etsiä ennen kuin löytää suomalainen ravintolan, joka tarjoilee haukea, muikkua, ahventa tai lahnaa, välkkyvien vesiemme viljaa.

I thought at first that there was a typo in that sentence and that it should be "Pitkään saa etsiä ennen kuin löytää suomalaiSEN ravintolan, joka...."

Tervo´s sentence could be rewritten like this : "Pitkään saa suomalainen etsiä ennen kuin löytää ravintolan, joka..."

[Jukka Aho]

Some other notes:

vankileirien saaristo (vankileiri = “prison camp”) is a reference to the Finnish title of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s book The Gulag Archipelago (“Vankileirien saaristo”.)

vesien vilja = a poetic, metaphorical reference to edible, “harvestable” fish available in the water bodies (of Finland)

klaukkalalainen (adj.) = something originating from or belonging to Klaukkala, the place where Prime Minister of Finland Matti Vanhanen currently resides. (The sentence where this word is used refers to a recent incident where a certain supermarket chain operator [HOK-Elanto] planned replacing locally-produced [Valio] milk products with Swedish [Arla] ones in their product selection, for cost-related reasons. PM Vanhanen, in his role of also being the chairman of the farmer-supported Centre Party, publicly disapproved of this development in his blog, implying he’s going to boycott his local HOK-Elanto “S” Market from now on.)

There’s also a special treat for Rob: tattia vähempiarvoinen!

[Rob A.]

...
There’s also a special treat for Rob: tattia vähempiarvoinen!

Well...that whole sentence was rather tough...but with some help "unscrambling" the word order, I did figure out it is the same type of construction as "Pekkaa vanhempi".... the ...."held to be of lesser value, but almost as good, suppilovahvero"....with the comparative, "vähempiarvoinen" in the essive case because of the requirements of the participle, "pidettyä"....

[Aside: ...though I'm still thinking about the use of the essive case...but I guess I'll leave that for tomorrow....]

....but Jari's criticism of Finnish food, made me think of this ruokalista.....there are some "bright spots" in the Finnish landscape....

...and comparison with France is, of course, "suicidal"...IMNSHO, all other countries are ...ruoan kehitysmaat... I remember well how easy it was to find good food in France... The only crappy meal I remember was during a short stopover in Germany....but that, of course, isn't fair....it was at the Frankfurt airport....

[Jukka Aho]

...
There’s also a special treat for Rob: tattia vähempiarvoinen!

Well...that whole sentence was rather tough...but with some help "unscrambling" the word order, I did figure out it is the same type of construction as "Pekkaa vanhempi".... the ...."held to be of lesser value, but almost as good, suppilovahvero"....with the comparative, "vähempiarvoinen" in the essive case because of the requirements of the participle, "pidettyä"....

Vähempiarvoinen, “[something] of lesser value”, is a rather strange word as it is. The more basic form would be vähäarvoinen, “[something] of little value”. Theoretically you could construct vähinarvoinen but that’s never used; you’d say something like Se on arvoltaan (kaikkein) vähin (or vähäisin or pienin), instead.

But here’s a translation of the entire paragraph:

Sieniä ei keskitason suomalaisessa ravintolassa saa koskaan, ellei sitten näitä viheliäisiä herkkusieniä. Milloin muistatte viimeksi nähneenne minkään ravintolan listalla esimerkiksi tattikeittoa tai tattimunakasta. Hetkinen... missäs se olikaan… aivan, venäläisessä ravintolassa. Tattia vähempiarvoisena pidettyä, mutta melkein yhtä hienoa suppilovahveroa ei käytetä ollenkaan.

“You can’t get mushrooms in an average Finnish restaurant at all[1], unless it’s those miserable button mushrooms. When was the last time you can recall seeing boletus soup or boletus omelet, for instance, on the menu of any restaurant. Wait a minute... where was that... right, in a Russian restaurant. The yellowfoot, held to be of lesser value than boletus but almost as exquisite, is not used at all.”

[1] Actually, he says ei saa koskaan, “you can never get”, but that sounds a bit too strong an expression in English, considering he’s immediately making an exception to that rule in the following clause. I think “at all” sounds better here...

but Jari's criticism of Finnish food, made me think of this ruokalista.....there are some "bright spots" in the Finnish landscape.... :)

His criticism is targeted first and foremost at “industrial” kitchens (school and workplace cafeterias offering bland, prepared and processed food-like substances, cooked factory-style in 300-liter stainless steel containers) and secondly, at the lack of creativity and imagination of the “actual” middle-of-the-road restaurants in taking advantage of the locally available ingredients.

In Finland, dining at work/school/home is often merely about “filling up” with industrially processed foodstuffs. Such dishes may be palatable – it’s still generally closer to simple home-made food than fast food, and maybe the nutrients are still there, maybe not; at least they try to take such things in consideration – but it’s not a “culinary experience” in anything but a sarcastic sense of the expression. There’s an air of puritanical “Let’s just be grateful that God gave us our daily bread” attitude to it. ;) (To be fair, school cafeterias are under very strict budget limitations, of course – what with their money coming from taxpayers. Finnish schools do not have commercial dining alternatives.)

As for eating out – I mean in a proper restaurant – let’s just say this can be a pretty dauntingly expensive country, so you tend not to do that too often. Not to mention the “fine dining” portions are usually smallish... obviously designed for you to go all the way, ordering appetizers and dessert and wine, etc. – which all adds up and is of course bound to make it even more expensive. (Acquiring some “slow food” home cooking skills is the most economical way to culinary happiness around these parts – if you care about such things. Many Finns don’t, they just fill their stomachs with what’s easily available to them and are content with that.)

[silk]

I thought at first that there was a typo in that sentence and that it should be "Pitkään saa etsiä ennen kuin löytää suomalaiSEN ravintolan, joka...."

The audio version read suomalaisen. But the sentence could be constructed either way, as you said, with a slightly different meaning.

Vähempiarvoinen, “[something] of lesser value”, is a rather strange word as it is. The more basic form would be vähäarvoinen, “[something] of little value”.

Do you know if both vähempiarvoinen and vähäarvoisempi are standard, grammatically correct Finnish?

[Jukka Aho]

Do you know if both vähempiarvoinen and vähäarvoisempi are standard, grammatically correct Finnish?

They are – at least according to Iso suomen kielioppi.

[maxxfi]

As for eating out – I mean in a proper restaurant – let’s just say this can be a pretty dauntingly expensive country, so you tend not to do that too often. Not to mention the “fine dining” portions are usually smallish... obviously designed for you to go all the way, ordering appetizers and dessert and wine, etc. – which all adds up and is of course bound to make it even more expensive. (Acquiring some “slow food” home cooking skills is the most economical way to culinary happiness around these parts – if you care about such things. Many Finns don’t, they just fill their stomachs with what’s easily available to them and are content with that.)

It's already quite some time I noticed how that is engraved in the choices of Finnish language.
In most European languages the place where you go out to eat is called restaurant/restaurang/restaurante/ristorante/etc.
that is where you can get... restored (in body and spirit).
And what word is Finnish using for that same concept? ravinto-la, just a place for nourishment!
Almost like a warning not to expect to receive anything more than simply edible stuff

[Rob A.]

...Tattia vähempiarvoisena pidettyä, mutta melkein yhtä hienoa suppilovahveroa ei käytetä ollenkaan.

I thought it might be useful to parse this whole sentence....

The essential part is this:

1. Supilovahveroa ei käytetä.

...which is in the passive voice...Finnish "fourth person"....and has the meaning:

"One does not use the yellowfoot mushroom at all."
Supilovahveroa is actually the object of this passive sentence and so is in the partitive because the verb, käydä requires it to be....ollenkaan is an adverb modifying this verb....

2.Tattia vähempiarvoisena pidettyä

This could be changed as follows:

jota pidetään vähempiarvoisena kuin (pidetään) tattina.
"which one holds in lesser value than (one holds) boletus"

Jota is in the partitive to agree with supilovahveroa, and I believe tatti has to be in the essive because of the verb, pitää, but I'm not sure...[Edit: ...and somehow it doesn't "look right" to me either....] And, another point, pidettyä is a passive past participle and pidetään is the present passive form. I'm not sure, at this point, if this should be handled differently....

3. mutta melkein yhtä hienoa

...this is a straightforward contradictory clause modifying the previous clause.... in English..."but almost as exquisite."....

So the whole sentence could, I believe, be restated this way:

Supilovahveroa jota pidetään vähempiarvoisena kuin (pidetään) "tattina..??", mutta melkein yhtä hienoa ei käytetä ollenkaan.

"The yellowfoot mushroom which one holds in lesser value than (one holds) the boletus is not used at all."

His criticism is targeted first and foremost at “industrial” kitchens (school and workplace cafeterias offering bland, prepared and processed food-like substances, cooked factory-style in 300-liter stainless steel containers) and secondly, at the lack of creativity and imagination of the “actual” middle-of-the-road restaurants in taking advantage of the locally available ingredients.

In Finland, dining at work/school/home is often merely about “filling up” with industrially processed foodstuffs. Such dishes may be palatable – it’s still generally closer to simple home-made food than fast food, and maybe the nutrients are still there, maybe not; at least they try to take such things in consideration – but it’s not a “culinary experience” in anything but a sarcastic sense of the expression. There’s an air of puritanical “Let’s just be grateful that God gave us our daily bread” attitude to it. (To be fair, school cafeterias are under very strict budget limitations, of course – what with their money coming from taxpayers. Finnish schools do not have commercial dining alternatives.)

As for eating out – I mean in a proper restaurant – let’s just say this can be a pretty dauntingly expensive country, so you tend not to do that too often. Not to mention the “fine dining” portions are usually smallish... obviously designed for you to go all the way, ordering appetizers and dessert and wine, etc. – which all adds up and is of course bound to make it even more expensive. (Acquiring some “slow food” home cooking skills is the most economical way to culinary happiness around these parts – if you care about such things. Many Finns don’t, they just fill their stomachs with what’s easily available to them and are content with that.)

OK.... But his remarks have a bit of a "grass is always greener" sense to them.... Even in ...la Belle France"....I saw the dreaded "Golden Arches"..... I'm not sure who would eat there...maybe Finns, Brits and Germans....

[Jukka Aho]

The essential part is this:

1. Supilovahveroa ei käytetä.

...which is in the passive voice...Finnish "fourth person"....and has the meaning:

"One does not use the yellowfoot mushroom at all."

Correct, but the “at all” sense comes from the word ollenkaan, which is missing from the above. Suppilovahveroa ei käytetä ollenkaan.
(Suppilo = “a funnel”, by the way... and it is related to words such as suppea, supistaa, and supistua. Vahvero is just a name of a certain family of mushrooms.)

2.Tattia vähempiarvoisena pidettyä

This could be changed as follows:

jota pidetään vähempiarvoisena kuin (pidetään) tattina.
"which one holds in lesser value than (one holds) boletus"

Jota is in the partitive to agree with supilovahveroa, and I believe tatti has to be in the essive because of the verb, pitää, but I'm not sure...

Not really. Tatti remains in the partitive:

jota pidetään vähempiarvoisena kuin (pidetään) tattia.

Here, we have two different usages of the verb pitää:

pitää jotakin... = to keep/hold/consider/regard something...
pitää jonakin = to keep/hold/consider/regard as something.

Or they can be combined:

pitää jotakin(A) jonakin(B) = to keep/hold/consider/regard something(A) as something(B)

Pidän juustohöylää nerokkaana keksintönä.

And, another point, pidettyä is a passive past participle and pidetään is the present passive form. I'm not sure, at this point, if this should be handled differently....:D

No, you’ve got the pidettyä → jota pidetään change right.

So the whole sentence could, I believe, be restated this way:

Supilovahveroa jota pidetään vähempiarvoisena kuin (pidetään) tattina mutta melkein yhtä hienoa ei käytetä ollenkaan.

Suppilovahveroa, jota pidetään vähempiarvoisena kuin (pidetään) tattia, mutta melkein yhtä hienona, ei käytetä ollenkaan.

Note the connection between the first pidetään and the both essives in the sentence:

Suppilovahveroa [...] pidetään vähempiarvoisena
Suppilovahveroa [...] pidetään [...] melkein yhtä hienona

"The yellowfoot mushroom which one holds in lesser value than (one holds) the boletus is not used at all."

I’m not sure about “one holds”. That kind of a phrasing would appear to include the writer himself. It is more like “...which is generally (being) held/regarded...” The writer does not imply he would necessarily belong to that group of people.

OK.... But his remarks have a bit of a "grass is always greener"sense to them....:D

Could be, as it was a pakina... ;) ...basically, “an entertaining rant written by a regularly appearing columnist”. Those are supposed to be somewhat subjective (pointed, humorous, sarcastic, overblown, light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek etc.) as far as the stated opinions (claims, deductions, speculations and viewpoints) go.

(Mr. Tervo is a novelist and a well-known, popular TV celebrity.)

Even in ...la Belle France"....I saw the dreaded "Golden Arches"..... I'm not sure who would eat there...maybe Finns, Brits and Germans....:lol:

Well, yeah. :D But it should be noted that fast food is a bit different matter altogether. Finnish school/workplace cafeteria food is not fast food – at least not in the typical sense of “fast food” – as it misses the common hallmarks (grease, fries, mayo, great taste [in some relative sense] etc.) At its worst, it’s more like an “institutional kitchen” and “frozen foods” version of the simplest, most basic home-cooking fare... combining the bleak taste and texture of the former with the unimaginative, utilitarian “no-nonsense” simplicity and blandness of the latter...

[Rob A.]

....Note the connection between the first pidetään and the both essives in the sentence:

Suppilovahveroa [...] pidetään vähempiarvoisena
Suppilovahveroa [...] pidetään [...] melkein yhtä hienona

Thanks....well explained....the only part that wasn't initially clear was "hienoa" changing to "hienona", but I think I have it now. In the original version of the sentence, "hienoa" had to agree with "suppilovahveroa" which, of course, is a partitive noun direct object. In the revised sentence, the relative pronoun, "jota" takes over this job and does the "agreeing" with "suppilovahveroa"....and "hienona" is required because...I think... ...there is a slight change of nuance... In the first sentence the "sense" is that the "suppilovahvero"{/i] is "almost equally exquisite"...a statement of "fact"....and in the revised sentence, it is "held as almost equally exquisite"....

I'm not sure about the English terminology that is used in Europe for these two kinds of mushrooms:

I think "yellowfoot" would simply called, "chanterelle" and "boletus", "porcini"....but I'm no mushroom expert....

[Pursuivant]

OK, Rob, next parse:
Hienonnettua suppilovahveroa pidetään hienona.

I think "yellowfoot" would simply called, "chanterelle" and "boletus", "porcini"....
kanttarelli/keltavahvero & suppilovahvero

[EP]

This is kanttarelli: http://images.google.fi/images?hl=fi&so ... =&gs_rfai=

The one is Rob´s picture is suppilovahvero.

[Jukka Aho]

I think... :ohno: ...there is a slight change of nuance... In the first sentence the "sense" is that the "suppilovahvero"{/i] is "almost equally exquisite"...a statement of "fact"....and in the revised sentence, it is "held as almost equally exquisite"....

Hey, that’s a good catch. ;) You’re right, the revised version turns the “statement of a fact” (which we probably have to interpret as being Mr. Tervo’s personal opinion on the matter, in the end) into a description of a public perception on the matter.

I'm not sure about the English terminology that is used in Europe for these two kinds of mushrooms:

I think "yellowfoot" would simply called, "chanterelle" and "boletus", "porcini"....but I'm no mushroom expert....:D

When writing the original translation, I only quickly checked those two names on Wikipedia, so I have no idea what you English-speakers actually call them. But suppilovahvero (Cantharellus tubaeformis) is not the same as keltavahvero or kantarelli (Cantharellus cibarius, or “chanterelle” in English)... I think.

[Pursuivant]

BTW we gotthese too. Finns are somewhat two-minded about shrooms, in some parts its delicacy and in some parts yuck. My dad was a "forester" foraging berries and mushrooms, but I don't recognize but chantarelles and the (false)morels - which is a poison here so they need to be boiled. How was it now Learn to recognize poisonous mushrooms. Pick only mushrooms you know. Yeah, and people have gotten darwinized with morels so its always a good thing to point out - don't "think" - they're poisonous here, so its like japanese eating blowfish. The "true morel" is huhtasieni - which also exists and is rarer, korvasieni is false morel and is p-o-i-s-o-n-o-u-s.