Possible Genetic links between Finnish genes & language

[N1C_NICe]

Finalnd is the only nation with a N (M231) majority ~ 60%

(sources)
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/N_Y-DNA.htm
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpN.html
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/N.htm

This mutative history list is from The Genetic Atlas, shows that Finalnd has more than one type of N1. That means more than one Nordic population lived in Finalnd, many of these population movements are as recent as 2500 BC so its possible those people were speaking other languages?

* N (M231) The Mesolithic marker of expansion in North Asia
* * N1 (LLY22g) The most dominant lineage of M231
* * * N1a (M128) Represents the Eastern most expansion in Eastern Siberia, Mongolia, Beringia, Manchuria, marker of Nordid intrusion in Korea
* * * N1b (P43) The Ultra Nordid marker of Northern Siberia
* * * * N1b1 (P63) The Eastern Ultra Nordid population of Siberia
* * * * N1b2* The Western N1b population, established itself in Russia, Karelia & Finland
* * * * * N1b2a (L665) Ultra Nordid marker in Finland & Karelia
* * * * * N1b2b (L666) Ultra Nordid marker in Karelia & Russia
* * * N1c (M46) The most successful lineage of M231 enjoys predominance in various Nordic regions in Eurasia
* * * * N1c1 (M178) The Ultra Nordid Mesolithic marker of Nordic Europe & the Yakutian regions of Siberia
* * * * * N1c1a (P21) marker of the Omogoj Turkic tribe in Yakutia
* * * * * N1c1b (P67) Predominant lineage amongst Turkic speakers in Yakutia
* * * * * N1c1c (P119) Siberian lineage
* * * * * N1c1d (L708) The Finno-Ugric marker, marker of Finnic substratum amongst Indo-Europeans in Nordic Europe
* * * * * * N1c1d* Finnids that didn't enter Europe in the Mesolithic
* * * * * * N1c1d1 (L1026) Exclusively Finno-Nordid Marker, enjoys predominance in Nordic Finland
* * * * * * * N1c1d1a (L550) A lineage established in Scandinavia, Baltic Europeans, a Varganian marker in Southern Europe
* * * * * * * N1c1d1b (1022) Finno-Karelian lineage
* * * * * * * N1c1d1c (1032) Kazakh lineage
* * * N1d (L727) A Siberian marker that was spread in historic times in the Balkans

[Pursuivant]

Probably the economizing of the words happened already during right after the Ice Age when the Proto-Finns moved over and found it feasible to keep their mouth shut and use the energy for keeping warm. The babblemouths then froze on the lake ice when they were ice-fishing (its quite windy on a lake). The silent men then slid the ones frozen stiff with their mouths gaping under the ice. And their hearts felt warm, and nobody said nothing, because everyone was thinking the same thing, peace at last. Usually foreigners not accustomed to the economy of words were traditionally given a mouthful of sticky pine sap before they enter public places so their teeth get stuck together so that decent people could have some peace and quiet. If the babbling came a nuisance the next step to cure verbal diarrea was to dip the foreigner then into a hole in the ice, or in the summer throw them into a bog, really persistent ones the tradition says if you put them in headfirst that usually starts to take effect. These days of course sticky toffee is offered. Now if the babbling comes a nuisance... theres a lot of bogs. Then again this silence does not apply to the female of the species in domestic environments, for they have a wonderful and frightening ability of speaking inhaling and exhaling... hence the archeologists excavating can tell Proto-Finnic female jawbones for their extensive wear. This also explains the early prevalence of ice-fishing and a long hunting treks.

[N1C_NICe]

Probably the economizing of the words happened already during right after the Ice Age when the Proto-Finns moved over and found it feasible to keep their mouth shut and use the energy for keeping warm. The babblemouths then froze on the lake ice when they were ice-fishing (its quite windy on a lake). The silent men then slid the ones frozen stiff with their mouths gaping under the ice. And their hearts felt warm, and nobody said nothing, because everyone was thinking the same thing, peace at last. Usually foreigners not accustomed to the economy of words were traditionally given a mouthful of sticky pine sap before they enter public places so their teeth get stuck together so that decent people could have some peace and quiet. If the babbling came a nuisance the next step to cure verbal diarrea was to dip the foreigner then into a hole in the ice, or in the summer throw them into a bog, really persistent ones the tradition says if you put them in headfirst that usually starts to take effect. These days of course sticky toffee is offered. Now if the babbling comes a nuisance... theres a lot of bogs. Then again this silence does not apply to the female of the species in domestic environments, for they have a wonderful and frightening ability of speaking inhaling and exhaling... hence the archeologists excavating can tell Proto-Finnic female jawbones for their extensive wear. This also explains the early prevalence of ice-fishing and a long hunting treks.

So dry humour is the norm in Finland

[Rob A.]

I went through the material you posted...it is interesting, though, of course, these kinds of heavy academic projects usually raise more questions than they answer. Such as the sample size, assumptions relating to ancestry, whether the members of the samples provided information on themselves or whether some more objective information gathering process was used, whether the sampling techniques were consistent throughout the world....(this last one would be highly suspect, I would think... )...but, you know, the usually problems with doing these types of studies....

Nevertheless it would appear that 55% to 60% of Finns have some ancestry from a "Uralic" location...no great surprise...and that the language has a similar origin...again no great surprise... What actually did surprise me was that Hungarians seem to have much closer similarities to other European groups, yet their language is also a Finno-Ugric language...and, as well, the Hungarians seem to "know" precisely when they arrived in their present location... 895...far later, I think, than when the Finnish ancestors arrived in Finland..... I think the Hungarians may have originated just slightly further south...still "Uralic", but maybe closer to the "ground zero" spot for most European's ancestors... Which really is still not that far south of the Urals...

Anyway interesting stuff, though it's always best not to read too much into it....

[Pursuivant]

I think its been established the Hungarians as well as the Huns before them were a "mixed race" of people(s) joined up a bit like a pirate crew giving chance for merchant seamen to join up or take the plank before they settled down finally. So the genetics and language do show some interesting shifts even before they met the "local" population (if there was any left).

[N1C_NICe]

I think its been established the Hungarians as well as the Huns before them were a "mixed race" of people(s) joined up a bit like a pirate crew giving chance for merchant seamen to join up or take the plank before they settled down finally. So the genetics and language do show some interesting shifts even before they met the "local" population (if there was any left).

Maybe the linguistic link between Finns & Hungarians was over-emphasized, because both languages are Non-IE in the middle of Indo Europeans & both came from the East. Which guarantees atleast some linguistic similarity, I trust the stronger links between Finns & Baltic speakers although they are supposed to be two complete diff languages.

I notice Baltics and Finns sound very similar to each other when they speak English, than Baltic & Hindi speakers when they speak English.

N frequency in Europe:
60% in Finland
45%~35% in the Baltic
20% in Russia
10% in Sweden
under 5% in the rest of Europe

So the Baltic states affinity to Finland is not just Geography

[Rob A.]

Maybe the linguistic link between Finns & Hungarians was over-emphasized, because both languages are Non-IE in the middle of Indo Europeans & both came from the East. Which guarantees atleast some linguistic similarity, I trust the stronger links between Finns & Baltic speakers although they are supposed to be two complete diff languages.

I notice Baltics and Finns sound very similar to each other when they speak English, than Baltic & Hindi speakers when they speak English.

Hmmmm..you're starting to sound like you have a hidden agenda....or maybe you don't know what you're talking about..... There is no serious dispute regarding the connection between Hungarian and Finnish....they are more than just "Non-IE" languages; they are both Finno-Ugric languages....

I have this nagging feeling that you have some hidden "ethno-centric" agenda....

[llewellyn]

I have this nagging feeling that you have some hidden "ethno-centric" agenda....

I believe that some Hungarian nationalists would prefer to be related to some way cooler language like Sumerian than to some far northern gibberish of a few semi-Samis living on raw reindeer meat and berries - and who could blame them! The evidence, of course, disagrees, but who cares... Anyway, languages can be adopted without a wholesale population change. I think I have read somewhere that one theory of the origin of Hungarian is that a small nomad group somewhere from the east made a conquest of the Hungarian plains and the locals adopted the conquerors' language which would be a common enough occurrance in history. It's just very silly in any case to cling to any old-fashioned nationalist myths. I think no nation has a "heroic" past if you would study that past carefully enough.

[Jaskahko]

The thread-starter indeed seems to have an agenda: he calls haplogroup N nordid! N1c1, in which 60 % of Finnish men belong, was born around Hakassia on Southern Siberia, but it spread to the west gradually, and to Finland it spread from the Volga region. Therefore there is much less Asian in Finns in the autosomal level (<10 %) than in the Y-chromosome.

There is also no doubt about the affinity between Finnish and Hungarian; the thread-starter confuses language and genes, which do not always correlate. Language cannot be seen in genes.

[ren_rr]

Genetics may or may not accurately determine only a part of any potential interactions between peoples.

It does not account for:

1. The influence of 'another gene'. That is, there could be 1% people of a different place but they may be culturally significant and have a great effect on the language. There could be 50% who only cause minor differences.
2. The redefinition of 'language' which began in Early Modernity with the first nationalist movements. There were perhaps many versions of Finnish as there were many versions of other European languages, e.g. French, which during the rise of nationalism were dismissed in favour of one dominant language, which might have been based on that of another 'gene'.


Language is a cultural construct. It's a by-product of a vastly complex web of social processes and things that are out of human control. To think that you can use genes to understand it is nonsense.