from Denver to Tampere

[dr_pgonzalez]

I know this has probably been asked thousands of times before, so please bear with me as I am new to this whole thing. (Right now I am hyperventilating about the whole thing)

1. Does anyone know of a "good" checklist for someone moving a family from the US to Finland (Tampere ?)

2. Anyone care to comment on what neighborhood in Tampere I can get a 3 bedroom house with a garage for less than 250000 euro ? In case you haven't figured it out yet, I'll be working in Hermia (Nokia)

3. Anyone know where to meet other helpful Immigrants to Finland when I start wondering what in hell I'm doing here ? (Usually happens when I don't see the sun for several weeks (':D')

4. Finally Nokia is paying for a 30m3 container. Is this enough for a family ? What about my car ? Do I stuff it in the container as well ?


Thanks
Patrick

[Rosamunda]

As for the container thing.....

When we moved to Hungary we were given the 30 m3 rule and told we would have to pay the difference on any surplus m3. Then they imposed a removals firm on us. The guy came round and estimated our contents at 85 m3 which meant I was liable for over half (almost 2/3) of the bill. "No problem" I said "but if I am paying most of the bill, then I chose the firm" At which point there was some discomfort and mutterings of discontent.... So, I contacted two other removal firms (all ISO 900x) and asked them to do me a quote. BOTH, estimated our contents at around 50m3 and the total price around HALF that of the company supplier!!!!! So I told them I was going to choose my own company. This really unpset them BUT what could they say? I was saving the company (and myself) money (and highlighting the fact that they were being screwed by their supplier).

So after obtaining the necessary VP approval and ALOT of grovelling we got to use our own supplier.

I suggest you contact your own firms for a quote telling them that you don't care what the $$$ are as long as they only quote 33.5m3

If you are NOT moving furniture or any electrical appliances then 30m2 is probably enough. But within Europe if you move an entire family lock,stock and barrel (beds, clothes, books, tables, TV, dishwasher, guinea-pig cage etc) it is way too low. We were moving into an unfurnished house without so much as a washing machine.

If you buy/rent a house here it will usually have a fitted kitchen with dishwasher and washing machine/drier and plenty of fitted storage... so you don't need that kind of stuff.

I suggest you rent for a year and then buy. We did.

Usually ex-pats are given the services of a relocation agent. They are pretty good (ours was) at finding accomodation and doing all the paperwork and I believe we even got a checklist from our lady. I don't think she will deal with your car though. I can give you her details if you like but she is in Espoo not Tampere.

Any more questions.... I'm happy to help.

[Rosamunda]

There used to be a Mobile Families group

http://www.mobilefamilies.com

but as far as I know the web-site is just sitting there and noone has updated it for a few years . Not sure if the group (ex-pat spouses) actually meets any more.

But IMO your employer should answer most of your questions and a relo agent should be part of your moving package.

There are several IESAFers in Tampere and you are not so far from Helsinki....

[Lilianne]

2. Anyone care to comment on what neighborhood in Tampere I can get a 3 bedroom house with a garage for less than 250000 euro ? In case you haven't figured it out yet, I'll be working in Hermia (Nokia)

First of all, you'll be heading to Hervanta as you probably already know. I'm a native and have spent hmm, let's count, 15 years in Hervanta. It's not the suburb of the best repuation but Hervanta is relatively large at least on the amount of residents and it has different areas. I can give you a small idea what to expect if you chose to rent up or buy an apartment in Hervanta (if you prefer to live next to your work, that is). The southernmost part if mainly single family houses or row houses and it's very quiet (family wise: should be safe), and I'd say it's quite a good value for the houses. Then, the norther you move, the less likely it's a nice neighbourhood. Most of Hervanta was built in the 70's and is covered with grey block of flats that are not a joy of any kind. Maybe the only good point would the the prices, but it is entirely up to you what you are looking for. What I read from your previous post, I'd not suggest an apartment in one of these buildings. Not for the family and not for your own sake. I've been there, and it was not fun even for a native.

The second bit is that you'll usually find a garage in most single family houses (omakotitalo), and with row houses (rivitalo) you either have a garage as in one of in the line with the rest of the residents, or at least a shelter for the car. In block of flats, it is usually impossible to find a garage and especially in Hervanta where the parking lots are used 110%.

Then, as penelope already told you, your employer should be able to help you with these issues. Either they could look for an apartment or a house or direct you to someone that has handled these issues before. You're not the first nor the last to encounter these issues. They also could give you some recommendations on the area, if you prefer - maybe asking them where have other expats liked to stay previously or so.

My suggestions are a house / an apartment in a row house in southern Hervanta (it's not more than a mile or so from the Hermia), or then in Kaukajärvi (older houses but still not the other side of the city), Annala (there are some pretty decent new block of flats, but also new-ish rowhouses and houses available), Hallila or Lukonmäki if you decide to live close to work. You'll see a map of these here: http://www.uta.fi/maps/hervanta-klik.html (Annala is the past east of Kaukajärvi area if you want to see where that is. Rusko on the other hand is altogether an industrial area.).

Yes, that is my thoughts for now. I tend to forgot what I want pointing out at the end, but nevermind, I hope you'll still see some sense in my post.

And, finally, welcome and good luck!

[Lilianne]

From etuovi.com

Simo Kaarion katu, South Hervanta
155500 €, 4 rooms, kitchen, sauna, 2 x WC, car shelter
Built in 1987

Excellent location workwise, very nice neighbourhood altogether. No 30 bus stop right next to this. Generally VERY NICE.

http://www.dime.net/dime/c/asunnot/pd/0 ... key=157560


.... and other one

Hämeenpuisto, right in the centre of Tampere
Apartment
4 rooms+kitchen+bathroom+stand in closet+balcony
162 500€

http://www.dime.net/dime/c/asunnot/pd/0 ... key=756313


... and yet

Lukonmäki (next to Hervanta)
Single family house
189 000€
5 rooms+kitchen+sauna

http://www.dime.net/dime/c/asunnot/pd/0 ... key=750063

...

Must say that with 250 000€ you'll get almost anything

Another note: Room counts are different in Finland. You'll find ads with "four rooms", not "three bedrooms". It is 4 rooms+kitchen = one for livingroom purposes, and the rest for whatever you like (bedroom, study) plus a kitchen. Usually, if not stated otherwise, there is no separate dining room - more like try to fit a dining table into the kitchen. Of course, with extra rooms, you might do whatever you prefer.

And what I have understood Finnish homes are smaller in m2 count than in avarage anywhere else, US or Britain. Correct me if I am wrong.

Electrical apliances such as dish washer, stove and very usually also washing machine etc are usually sold with the package while you purchase a house that has been used as a home before.

[Lilianne]

http://www.tampere.fi/culture/mamu/mamu_english.htm

http://www.tampere.fi/english_v/viy/fguide.htm

http://www.tampere.fi/english_v/pdf/tre_seutuesite.pdf

http://www.itampere.info


Yes I'll never stop posting links unless I'll do it now.

[dusty_bin]

And what I have understood Finnish homes are smaller in m2 count than in avarage anywhere else, US or Britain. Correct me if I am wrong.

Useless factoid!

US homes have on average about twice the living space per person as compared to FInland and the UK. About 700sq ft. Finland has about 430sq ft and the UK about 380. I was surprised at the latter as I have always been surprised at just how small Finnish homes were. Perhaps that has something to do with kids flitting the nest earlier in Finland than the UK, because British homes seem bigger, just more folk living in them.

[Lilianne]

I have always been surprised at just how small Finnish homes were. Perhaps that has something to do with kids flitting the nest earlier in Finland than the UK, because British homes seem bigger, just more folk living in them.

I wonder what the average size would be if we left the huge countryside houses and their only residents out and only counted the space each of us had in the cities. I've not seen _enough_ space in one urban home until the kids have gone and by then most of the couples seem to sell and move someplace smaller.

Generally I can't understand why the houses and apartments are that small. None of us like it this way, I suppose. Shall own a huge house, me and my hubby only, one day. Need to correct what I've seen this far, two bedrooms, three children and parents.. Uh-oh.

[dusty_bin]

My last Finnish girlfriend had a nice middle class job, nice car (for FInland) decent benefits. SHe was a specialised sales representative.

SHe lived in an apartment that was perhaps 70m2 with her two sons. A nice, modern and clean place. Only one problem. SHe slept in the living room as there was not enough bedrooms. She could barely afford what she had and was anxioulsy awaiting the time when her oldest would leave so that she could move into a smaller place.

I simply could not imagine such a thing happening in the UK, for a middle class, mature woman. THe only other time that I see such living condidtions is in Russia and other countries of the FSU, but such a person as she would almost certainly be able to afford a better place in those countires.

[Lilianne]

SHe lived in an apartment that was perhaps 70m2 with her two sons. A nice, modern and clean place. Only one problem. SHe slept in the living room as there was not enough bedrooms. She could barely afford what she had ...

Yes, exactly what I mean! It is not like there wouldn't be space for each Finn or at least their family having a single family house with enough rooms for each family member, is it.

What the heck makes the apartment so expensive? I've seen the Dutch live in larger apartments, most of them even in houses, and it's _pretty_ different from what we have to put up with over here.

[superiorinferior]

What the heck makes the apartment so expensive? I've seen the Dutch live in larger apartments, most of them even in houses, and it's _pretty_ different from what we have to put up with over here.

I have always been led to believe that heating costs kept houses and living spaces small...

But I'm glad others have the same gripe, as I am nearly 2m tall and EVERYTHING affordable (including my apartment) is too small!

I think it has to do with there not being enough Caveat Emptor, I mean that most Finnish consumers are led to believe that the seller is always right, and that market value is decided by some governmental body (not what the market will sustain)...

How else can one explain the price of food so uniformly EXPENSIVE in Finland?

I hope Wal-Mart comes to Finland and teaches those bastards at the KKK Markets a thing or two

No, really!

[bohica]

My last Finnish girlfriend had a nice middle class job, nice car (for FInland) decent benefits. SHe was a specialised sales representative.

SHe lived in an apartment that was perhaps 70m2 with her two sons. A nice, modern and clean place. Only one problem. SHe slept in the living room as there was not enough bedrooms. She could barely afford what she had and was anxioulsy awaiting the time when her oldest would leave so that she could move into a smaller place.

I simply could not imagine such a thing happening in the UK, for a middle class, mature woman. THe only other time that I see such living condidtions is in Russia and other countries of the FSU, but such a person as she would almost certainly be able to afford a better place in those countires.

You've never been to San Francisco, have you? My sister pay $2,000 for a small studio apartment. It's nice, but still.

[dusty_bin]

It is not the heating that keeps living space small. (well, it does aid efficiency, but it ain't WHY!)

Old buildings have been subdivided, as is normal around the world, to make apartments from houses, or larger apartments. THis always gives small, oddly proportioned properties, but FInland does not have many of these, coz there are not many old buildings.

I think it goes back to the urbanisation of the 60's and 70's. There was a need for rapidly assembled, system built properties. Apartment blocks. They were built using Russian standards and designs, the Russians had been at it longer than the Finns and had the expertise and so FInns copied or used Russian systems. (fortunately to higher standards) Russians have typically had small living areas since the 1920's when they went through the urbanisation process and postwar when they needed to replace destroyed buildings cheaply.

You can see this if you visit Tallinn's suburbs, or Vyborg. In Vyborg, there are buildings that look almost identical to the ones in Kannelmaki, in much worse condidtion, but built at about the same time. I guess that once people had become accustomed to cramped conditions the social structures built up to accommodate the shortcomings. For example students are mostly accommodated in student 'cells', but away from parents. Unlike the UK where people tend to stay in the parental home longer. I have noticed that Finnish kids with parents who can afford a proper home seem to stay with the parents. It comes down to space.

All the above is surmise based upon observation. I am happy to learn from any builders or architectural history bods, coz the Russian places sure do look similar in style, size and layout to many Finnish apartments.

Bohica- I understand that SF has some of the highest property prices in the US, but also wages are commensurate. THe woman of whom I spoke was earning IIRC a little over €30K plus non cash benefits. In Britain, I know that five years ago, a person doing a similar job would have been earning some €75-100K. I would expect that the wages in the SF area would be significantly higher than the UK for this work. Even on British level wages of 5 years ago, paying $2000 per month for a studio would not be a challenge, more for a bigger place would not be as difficult, relatively speaking as for my friend.

[Hank W.]

Finnish building companes actually have built many of those kannelmäki look-alikes in Russia. Big export industry. So that explains some of the the similarities.

Helsinki had a big urbanization spree right after the war. You see all those houses along north Mannerheimintie they're 1940's houses. Like my father lived in a "stove-room" in his childhood. That was mom, dad, 5 children, an uncle and two sublet tenants. You can see one of those "stove rooms" in the "Workers' Museum" in Alppila.
Työväenasuntomuseo Kirstinkuja 4
su-to 11-16
pe-la suljettu
torstaisin vapaa pääsy

So your talk about "small" flats is silly. They are huge compared to the squalor people had lived in a few years before.

Something appropriate for the size of flat question
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1077302.html?menu=

[dusty_bin]

As indeed they were for many Russians. But for very many Russians and FInns they WERE smaller. Your antecedents lived in early urban accommodation that in almost every country was very poor indeed. For people moving into the new concrete boxes from the countryside they would have found that things were much more cramped than they were used to, although they almost certainly had better facilities than in the countryside. Now, it is too late to change the standards, they are cast in concrete in every town, city and village across Finland.

TO say that one bad negates another bad is silly... Both are (were still bad)
Your Dad was probably very happy with his first concrete box. Your uncle from the country, probably much less so, even while he appreciated the flush toilets and his wife liked the kitchen units.

Anyway, from a comment about relative sizes of homes we have gone a bit far off topic perhaps!